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Re:Why conversations are better with four people by Amorymeltzer on Saturday December 14, 2024 @07:22AM (#42416609)
90 years ago in Serve it Forth, the glorious M. F. K. Fisher stated definitively that the maximum number of people at an ideal dinner party is six, and probably three or four. Glad to see she's being upheld! Of course, the individuals probably matter more:

>It is, though, very dull to be at a table with dull people, no matter what their sex. Dining partners, regardless of gender, social standing, or the years they've lived, should be chosen for their ability to eat—and drink!—with the right mixture of abandon and restraint. They should enjoy food, and look upon its preparation and its degustation as one of the human arts.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by wslh on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:28AM (#42417346)
> 90 years ago in Serve it Forth...

I wish there were a tool that could quickly connect new articles to older ideas, highlighting how much of what seems original today often builds on existing work, or just was mentioned before.

It wouldn't need to be as precise as mathematics or the hard sciences, just probabilistic enough to reveal meaningful connections.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by jackthetab on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:04AM (#42417539)
That would be _tres cool_.

Thinking out loud here...That could be like an LLM that is tokenized on ideas as opposed to words/fragments, no?

I'm sure someone has worked on this, but how would a computer extract an idea from a bunch of words (sentences?) ?

Looks like another rabbit hole to add to the list...

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by wslh on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:37AM (#42417727)
I would say that tracing concepts back to their origins could be a good benchmark for evaluating AI models.

In the context of the article you mentioned, Robin Dunbar’s research and the Max4 Principle are referenced [1], along with a relevant Wikipedia article [2]. Expanding further, one can trace earlier foundational works, such as “The Primary Group as Cooley Defines It” [3], and even earlier sociological contributions by thinkers like Auguste Comte.

As for the “Serve it Forth” answer, I haven’t come across that yet except when, obviously?, I named it explicitly.

[1] https://newcreate.org/max-4-principle/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_in_small_groups

[3] https://www.jstor.org/stable/4105179

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by hindsightbias on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:27AM (#42417994)
It could only go back to 1992 or so. For most people, history is whatever is linkable or the 5% of pre-1992 stuff that is popular enough to rate a dead wiki footnote.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by wslh on Saturday December 14, 2024 @01:51PM (#42418725)
The Google Ngram Viewer indicates that data was indexed well before 1992, even if the resource isn’t publicly accessible [1]. This likely reflects the reality that new content often garners more attention than old content, which doesn’t align with the "pay-per-click" model of monetization.

[1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=darwin&year_st...

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by ghaff on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:26AM (#42417661)
When I was a full-time IT industry analyst, one of the things that regularly annoyed me was overly large tables at dinner. A lot of factors were in play including the fact that many analysts felt very strongly about being at a table with the "important people" (tm) in the room. But if you were at even a round table seating 8+ people, it meant in practice you only talked with a few people who were reasonably adjacent.

I would say a 4-6 person table is about the largest where everyone can be talking with all the other people.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by RangerScience on Saturday December 14, 2024 @03:37PM (#42419279)
Six can be a bit of magic number for a table in a larger crowd, because people tend to be in groups of 2 or 4, so a table for six (apparently) means you’re inviting/ causing groups to mix.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by cutemonster on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:13AM (#42423830)
Three seats is also magic? To invite/cause one person in each such group of 4 to go and find new friends. Plus some drama
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by Tempest1981 on Sunday December 15, 2024 @12:39AM (#42421723)
At weddings, table sizes seem to be 8 or 10. Is that deliberate, to create 2 conversation groups?

I sometimes find myself trying to follow both conversations, or switching to the more interesting one. Is that bad etiquette?

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by pavel_lishin on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:44AM (#42423651)
Could be - making sure that everyone at the table always has a choice of conversation to listen to, instead of being trapped in one they have no interest in.

I doubt it's that explicit, though. Maybe it's just worked out better that way over the years, without anyone fully realizing the why?

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by jfengel on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:03AM (#42423774)
I suspect that it's more about the geometry of best fitting people into the space. It allows the right amount of room for centerpieces and bread bowls and such. At least as far as the caterer and wedding planner are concerned, conversation is the last thing on their minds.

Those tables are intended for eight comfortably. They stretch to ten. You can do twelve, but everyone is gonna be cramped.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by ghaff on Sunday December 15, 2024 @11:14AM (#42424196)
It's a size and shape that's so omnipresent one expects that it's some combination of geometrical efficiency, ability to pass/reach things, some flexibility in self-organizing conversational groups, and probably some other things such as not being too large to setup, teardown, and store.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by rr808 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:27AM (#42417990)
Dinner parties at someone's house are such a lost art. I'm going to use this winter to start to bring them back!
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by SoftTalker on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:46AM (#42418092)
My parents used to host dinner parties. Actual sit-down dinners at a table with place settings, not pizza with paper plates. They are a lot of work, especially if you do the cooking yourself. I was pretty young and only remember them vaguely, but they stopped because nobody ever reciprocated.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by anal_reactor on Saturday December 14, 2024 @12:50PM (#42418421)
The problem with dinner parties is that they only work if all attendees like each other equally. Any group of people talking at once will boil down to the lowest common denominator, so one bad guest can easily ruin the whole event. Meanwhile during a pizza party it's okay to chat in a smaller group, which means that when you have a complex network of "A likes B but doesn't like C who is best friend of B", there's much higher chance of making it possible to somehow divide the guests into sensible subgroups.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by aksss on Saturday December 14, 2024 @04:18PM (#42419522)
The nice thing about dinner parties is that you can choose who to invite (and not invite).
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by SoftTalker on Saturday December 14, 2024 @12:57PM (#42418465)
Well that brings up another thing that we seem to have lost in society: how to be pleasant at a social event even if you don't like or find agreeable everyone else there.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by anal_reactor on Saturday December 14, 2024 @01:04PM (#42418510)
Oh, I can perfectly do this! Actually, I'm very good at this! It's just that after 8 hours of doing so for 5 days in a row, I don't have any more energy for that.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by wellix on Saturday December 14, 2024 @01:59PM (#42418778)
Do you have any tips on how to perfectly coexist with disagreeable people?
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by mcsniff on Saturday December 14, 2024 @02:30PM (#42418932)
Consider I, myself, might be disagreeable to others and they seem to perfectly coexist with me (so far).

Every invitation to fight doesn't have to be accepted.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by SoftTalker on Saturday December 14, 2024 @02:13PM (#42418853)
It sort of depends on a mutual politeness or the sense that a dinner party is not the time or place to bring up (or persist in discussing) something controversial. If someone insists on being an asshole and spoiling the event there's not a lot you can do, but it seems that more people used to have the social graces to not to spoil an event they were invited to, and would be embarassed if they did.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by lowbloodsugar on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:03PM (#42420684)
Beat poem about that fifth guest: https://youtu.be/eYJ60eWprlQ?si=VnWBdn-1iqJT3bOL
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by anal_reactor on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:29PM (#42420783)
Well, it depends. If those people are willing to accept our differences, then I reciprocate, and we can be friends. I accommodate them, they accommodate me. But if gap is too big to be bridged (they have a completely different personality), or they don't want to reciprocate (they insist on doing things their way because obviously that's normal and better and everything) then I just stop caring, and treat them as necessary evil. Coworker is passionate about ruining a project and manager won't do anything about it? Not my problem, just make sure that my suggestions were written down and then rejected. I'm not paid to do engineering, I'm paid to put up with stupid people and office politics while doing minimal amount of engineering. Aunt feels the need to spread the word of Jesus? Well, looks like next time I won't make it to visit her, and if I absolutely need to because of complex family relationships, I'll just nod and smile while being mentally absent.

At the same time, I refuse to spend my free time with people who challenge my patience. There's a clear distinction between professional/family me, and the leisure time me.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by jamiek88 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:42PM (#42421093)
Yes. Adlerian philosophy. Start with the book ‘the courage to be disliked’ and work from there.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by nkrisc on Sunday December 15, 2024 @06:44AM (#42422934)
Be polite, even if they’re not. Choose to ignore their bait and slights. Choose to not engage with their negativity, and only say what is necessary and nothing more. If they complain, whine, or speak ill of others, affirm that you see they’re upset, and move on.

Anyone who has raised children ought to recognize these tactics.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by etrautmann on Saturday December 14, 2024 @02:06PM (#42418811)
Both are great! We love having people over for a nicely presented dinner or pizza. The import part is getting people together.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by pessimizer on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:54AM (#42418122)
People are still doing it with game nights: have dinner, then play a board/card game together (usually with drinks.) In the 50s, Bridge or Dominoes was a big married couple date.

I'd like to see a revival of the old setup where everyone has dinner, then everybody in turn, individually and/or in groups, does a musical performance, poetry reading, or interesting lecture to entertain everyone else.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by RangerScience on Saturday December 14, 2024 @03:41PM (#42419301)
Pro tip 1: Potluck! Cooking and organizing can be a lot of work.

Pro tip 1a: Hot pot! You supply the pot and broth; guests bring the rest.

Pro tip 2: The first one will be waaay harder; then it’ll get easier, as you get a track record and you don’t need to recruit (or “train”) guests; they’re already in and already trained :)

Pro tip 3: They get easier, fast, as you both 1) get practice and 2) learn what doesn’t matter

Pro tip 3: The first people to show up will ask to help; plan something for them to do (I do a make-a-pizza party; I have them grate the mozzarella)

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by rolandog on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:29PM (#42420785)
Thanks for this! I hope to put it in practice soon!
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by Rendello on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:40PM (#42421082)
I found "The Two-Hour Cocktail Party" on Hacker News, and the advice really resonated with me although I haven't had the opportunity to host yet. The author suggests doing a few of these cocktail parties before a dinner party, as he considers those to be advanced and quite stressful for someone not used to hosting. I have to agree, I read through it right after hosting a Thanksgiving dinner party that was a lot of fun, but was... trying.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32879851

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by o11c on Sunday December 15, 2024 @01:57AM (#42421990)
Some variations:

- Formal. Host does all the planning and provides all of the food. At most, some people help in the kitchen.

- Informal. Don't use the good china or fancy napkins, might eat in the kitchen or living room. Often used before a game night or similar.

- Collaboratively assigned. People are assigned a particular set of foods (bread, potatoes, etc.) to prepare (usually about 2 except for the host who might do more), common at holidays (usually formal in winter and informal in summer).

- Semi-assigned. People are assigned general categories of what food (meat, side, salad, dessert) to prepare. Useful if the meal is for a group smaller than the chaotic-potluck threshold, or if you don't have a potluck culture ingrained.

- Location. In a house? In a rented facility? In a public park, or at the beach? Sometimes "on your front lawn / in your back yard" is a reasonable answer.

Re:Why conversations are better with four people by globular-toast on Sunday December 15, 2024 @05:02AM (#42422616)
That's because everyone works for someone else these days. Back then more people (particularly women) worked for themselves, building their own wealth (house, social life, family etc) and their own expertise. Now everyone works for someone else, building someone else's wealth and becoming an expert in someone else's domain etc.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by SoftTalker on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:41AM (#42418065)
I like that even as someone nearly 60 years old there are still new words to learn. TIL "degustation" - the act of tasting with relish; savoring.
Re:Why conversations are better with four people by adverbly on Sunday December 15, 2024 @12:55PM (#42424804)
"three couples" makes an excellent group!