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Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by eschneider on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:29AM (#42318391)
Do a search for 'UnitedHealth uses faulty AI to deny elderly patients' and see what comes up.

I'm not saying this is deserved, more that I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to just up and execute an insurance CEO.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by cnst on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:36AM (#42318459)
I read the title as "finally shot" before my morning coffee. ("Finally", not "fatally".)
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by vunderba on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:44AM (#42318557)
There's a very good article published by ProPublica about the company in question. The name of the company is "EviCore" - so at least they're being relatively upfront about it.

https://www.propublica.org/article/evicore-health-insurance-...

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by gk1 on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:39AM (#42318496)
Let's not normalize killing anyone from companies whose AI products aren't 100% accurate. (Which is every company with an AI product.)
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by LargeWu on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:42AM (#42318537)
No, but this is a case where incorrect AI decisions may legitimately contribute to people's deaths. Let's also not normalize the idea that it's OK for people to die so one of the most profitable companies in the world can make even more money.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MaxfordAndSons on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @11:09AM (#42318859)
Unfortunately the latter is already very normalized.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by sly010 on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:48AM (#42318615)
Or you could say let's not normalize broken AI in health care related systems, but potato potato I guess.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by bilbo0s on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:50AM (#42318630)
AI in health care, (and pretty much any sector that could kill someone), should be strictly regulated.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by llamaimperative on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:46AM (#42318595)
This is not even remotely close to the "big issue" with UHG. There's probably no individual company that's responsible for more dysfunction in the American health system than UHG.

Not that I think it justifies murdering the CEO, but also such is the nature of systematic violation of massive numbers of people's sense of justice.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by itsibitzi on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:41AM (#42318522)
I think we can be pretty confident that he wasn't shot because an AI product wasn't accurate.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by bilbo0s on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:49AM (#42318619)
I doubt anyone on HN would have any interest in normalizing that practice. But almost everyone who will be wronged by these systems are going to be up in arms.

I think we'll see a lot more of this sort of thing in the future. Your car killed my mother and the law said it was fine. Your insurance company denied my grandma's claim and she died in agony after paying premiums for 30 years.

Let's just hope that autonomous drones don't become trivially capable as weapons. At that point, everyone from the President and your local police chief to the chairman of Bank of America and the local ambulance chasing lawyer who sued the wrong guy's mom after she hit someone in a car accident would be in a very bad situation.

We should really try to get this under control before it gets out of hand.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by marshaul on Thursday December 05, 2024 @12:50AM (#42325348)
Serious question, why exactly should we work so hard to insulate the ultra-rich from the consequences of their actions? They are already virtually completely insulated, whereas everybody else is held to the standard which should be reserved for those with the education to know better and the resources to do better.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by yyuugg on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:42AM (#42318539)
I don't think the parent poster is doing that, I think they are pointing out that when the ai products are faulty and result in the predictable deaths or suffering of people, someone out there might get angry enough to make bad choices.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by jjulius on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @03:42PM (#42321828)
I'm not saying that you're wrong, or that I feel that killing is OK, but as others have expressed throughout this thread, it feels weird to say stuff like that in regards to a company that itself has normalized letting people die for the sake of higher profits.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by dns_snek on Thursday December 05, 2024 @03:55AM (#42326298)
Nobody was killed because an AI product was inaccurate. If this was indeed the reason, this CEO was killed for killing someone's family member by denying them healthcare.

You're not expected to have a faultless AI but you're expected to supervise it, to have an appeal process, and to make things right when AI makes mistakes. In other words, this is a "high risk system" under the EU AI Act, which should have appropriate safeguards in place.

> Human oversight shall aim to prevent or minimise the risks to health, safety or fundamental rights that may emerge when a high-risk AI system is used in accordance with its intended purpose or under conditions of reasonably foreseeable misuse, in particular where such risks persist despite the application of other requirements set out in this Section.

https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/article/14/

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by llamaimperative on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:45AM (#42318578)
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by auntienomen on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:39AM (#42318493)
We don't have any idea what the motivation for this murder was.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:39AM (#42318491)
Well it’s very unfortunate for all Americans that rely on any healthcare company.

Since they will all be increasing their rates soon to cover the expenses of 24/7 armed guards, armored vehicles, etc…

Edit: Or a reduction in service quality to cover the new expenses.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by ToucanLoucan on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:45AM (#42318580)
As someone who endured UHC for several years, I assure you there is no service quality to reduce.

> How do they still have that many customers if their service was so bad?

Because the people making the decision to purchase UHC services and using UHC services are two wildly different demographics.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:58AM (#42318739)
How do they still have that many customers if their service was so bad?

Do they have an effective monopoly in certain States?

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by s1artibartfast on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @11:26AM (#42319084)
No, they are a top tier health company that offers different options including premium healthcare. If you have 50 million customers, you will have some negative experiences.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by FactKnower69 on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:55PM (#42322960)
what is this post? are you under the impression that you get to choose your health insurance provider in the US? your job picks for you
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Thursday December 05, 2024 @09:21AM (#42328464)
The people picking are also human beings who experience the services of said company?

Or are you implying the ‘pickers’ get special gold plated services completely different from regular employees?

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday December 05, 2024 @09:53AM (#42328754)
They are monetarily and/or promotionally incentivized to pick a bad, cheaper option for employees. The other employees don't get rewarded for the decision.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Thursday December 05, 2024 @12:03PM (#42330059)
They do get rewarded?

That money has to come from somewhere, so a cheaper pick means more money available for other things like nicer employee lounges, free drinks, etc…

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday December 05, 2024 @01:57PM (#42331308)
I'm sorry to inform you that the money does not go to those things, but rather to reward the person who made a poor choice for everyone, and also to retained earnings.

Unless you were being sarcastic in saying "yeah you're going to die sooner due to our poor healthcare choice, but hey, a free soda*!"

* remote workers get nothing

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Thursday December 05, 2024 @02:52PM (#42331957)
Where do you think perks, facilities, etc., offered in a modern workplace in the US come from, if not via spending money somewhere?
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday December 05, 2024 @03:33PM (#42332450)
Why do you think perks somehow get better when healthcare benefits get worse? Usually they both get worse at the same time due to the same cost-cutting incentives. We'd need some data showing that savings from choosing terrible healthcare plans get redirected towards improving perks in an equal-or-more-valuable way (including for remote folks) in order to justify the former with the latter.

Besides that, most companies can afford free soda with or without terrible healthcare choices, so it seems totally orthogonal: free soda doesn't require bad healthcare choices and bad healthcare choices don't imply free soda.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Thursday December 05, 2024 @07:54PM (#42334778)
I never said there must be a direct genuine linkage?

It could of course be very delayed or simply be used primarily as pretexts for corporate infighting with a very low probability of such a linkage.

But nonetheless even in the worst case scenario, a very low probability for the median employee is still better than zero probability.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by ImPostingOnHN on Friday December 06, 2024 @09:38AM (#42340215)
Without evidence that the savings were being directed towards a cause preferable to employees, I would conclude that there was insufficient convincing justification for choosing a bad healthcare plan other than that it provided extra incentives to the chooser, like money or favor.

'We could theoretically spend greater than 0% of the savings on something that could be better or worse sometime in the future' isn't good enough on its own, and it's not convincing enough that it will ever happen, and if it does, it doesn't leave me convinced that the money will be spent on something better for me.

> even in the worst case scenario, a very low probability for the median employee is still better than zero probability.

The criteria to use here is, "do employees feel they're better off with the new, terrible healthcare plan, given any free sodas etc they might have received in exchange". If the employees wouldn't have voluntarily made the same choice for themselves, then it was a bad healthcare choice for employees.

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by bilbo0s on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:57AM (#42318719)
Touché
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by eddd-ddde on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @12:56PM (#42320054)
As if they couldn't just buy that without increasing prices and still make a gazillion dollars.
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by MichaelZuo on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @05:47PM (#42322903)
For what reasons?

Why would they all start behaving like charities?

Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by Mistletoe on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @10:40AM (#42318499)
Re:UnitedHealthcare CEO fatally shot in midtown Manhattan by CatWChainsaw on Wednesday December 04, 2024 @06:32PM (#42323219)
Per Reddit: "One is a high powered assassin whose livelihood depends on his ability to rationalize beyond emotion to calculate the cost of a life. The other guy is still alive."

Edit: I would love to make $20/minute every day finding ways to drive people into medical bankruptcy, despair, and death, just like him, because being rich is awesome. :)