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Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by linguae on Friday November 29, 2024 @05:19PM (#42277630)
During my teenage and college years in the 2000s, I was inspired by what I’ve read about Bell Labs, and I wanted to work as a computer science researcher in industry. I’ve also been inspired by Xerox PARC’s 1970s and 1980s researchers. I pursued that goal, and I’ve worked for a few industrial research labs before I switched careers to full-time community college teaching a few months ago.

One thing I lament is the decline of long-term, unfettered research across the industry. I’ve witnessed more companies switching to research management models where management exerts more control over the research directions of their employees, where research directions can abruptly change due to management decisions, and where there is an increased focus on profitability. I feel this short-term approach will cost society in the long term, since current funding models promote evolutionary work rather than riskier, potentially revolutionary work.

As someone who wanted to become a researcher out of curiosity and exploration, I feel alienated in this world where industry researchers are harangued about “delivering value,” and where academic researchers are pressured to raise grant money and to publish. I quit and switched to a full teaching career at a community college. I enjoy teaching, and while I miss the day-to-day lifestyle of research, I still plan to do research during my summer and winter breaks out of curiosity and not for career advancement.

It would be great if there were more opportunities for researchers to pursue their interests. Sadly, though, barring a cultural change, the only avenues I see for curiosity-driven researchers are becoming independently wealthy, living like a monk, or finding a job with ample free time. I’m fortunate to have the latter situation where I have 16 weeks per year that I could devote outside my job.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Friday November 29, 2024 @08:34PM (#42278691)
The truth is that kind of research can only happen with a very rich monopoly.

Bell labs came about when AT&T was the monopoly telephone provider in the US.

PARC happened when Xerox had a very lucrative monopoly on copy machines.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by linguae on Friday November 29, 2024 @09:08PM (#42278833)
I have come to realize that over the years, though I still believe that wealthier companies like Apple, NVIDIA, Facebook, and the like could fund curiosity-driven research, even if it’s not at the scale of Bell Labs or Xerox PARC.

On a smaller scale, there is The Institute for Advanced Study where curiosity-driven research is encouraged, and there is the MacArthur Fellowship where fellows are granted $150,000 annual stipends for five years for them to pursue their visions with no strings attached. Other than these, though, I’m unaware of any other institutions or grants that truly promote curiosity-driven research.

I’ve resigned myself to the situation and have thus switched careers to teaching, where at least I have 4 months of the year “off the clock” instead of the standard 3-4 weeks of PTO most companies give in America.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by ApolloFortyNine on Friday November 29, 2024 @09:55PM (#42279024)
If Zuck's obsession with VR isn't curiosity driven research than nothing is.

10 billion yearly losses for something that by all accounts isn't close to magically becoming profitable. It honestly just seems like something he thinks is cool and therefore dumps money in.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by linguae on Friday November 29, 2024 @10:13PM (#42279084)
It's an example of Zuck's curiosity. When I refer to curiosity-driven research, I mean curiosity driven by the researchers, where the researchers themselves drive the research agenda, not management.

To be fair, though; Facebook, I mean, Meta is a publicly-traded company and if the shareholders get tired of not seeing any ROI from Meta's VR initiatives, then this could compel Zuck to stop. Even Zuck isn't free from business pressures if the funding is coming from Meta and not out of Zuck's personal funds.

Back to Bell Labs and Xerox PARC, my understanding of how they worked is that while management did set the overall direction, researchers were given very wide latitude when pursuing this direction with little to no pressure to deliver immediate results and to show that their research would lead to profits. Indeed, at one point AT&T was forbidden by the federal government from entering businesses outside of their phone business, and in the case of Xerox PARC, Robert Taylor was able to negotiate a deal with Xerox executives where Xerox's executives wouldn't meddle in the affairs of PARC for the first five years. (Once those five years ended, the meddling began, culminating with Bob Taylor's famous exit in 1983.)

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by rat9988 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @03:53AM (#42280449)
I mean at some point. You either have to find someone rich who has the same curiosity as you and wants to fund it, or fund it yourself.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by iamacyborg on Saturday November 30, 2024 @05:58AM (#42280885)
Is patronage a thing that even really happens anymore?
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by mrunkel on Saturday November 30, 2024 @08:00AM (#42281363)
As far as I know, Mr. Zuckerberg still owns a controlling interest in Meta Platforms.

Since he has 57% of the votes, he can tell everyone to pound sand.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by JKCalhoun on Saturday November 30, 2024 @12:11PM (#42282656)
That's right. Research needs to be bottom-up.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by formerly_proven on Saturday November 30, 2024 @12:26PM (#42282778)
Managers heard that too but dramatically misunderstood what that phrase means.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by GaelFG on Saturday November 30, 2024 @09:29AM (#42281800)
I bet (litteraly, founded an xr game development company in february) xr/vr games will indeed became a mainstream gaming platform in the next 5 years, maybe even next year. If or when it become the case it may totally become as present as smartphone and replace a lot of monitors, especially if they succeed to reduce them as smartglasses like their totally are progressing to.

if it become the case, meta get 30% of the revenues associated with it.

If it does not, i'm pretty sure they can now make good smartphones and even have a dedicated os. I'm pretty sure they can find a way to make money with it.

A meta quest 3s in inself is an insane experience for 330€ and it's current main disadvantages for gaming are the lack of players and the catalogue size. Even using it as a main monitor with a bluetooth keyboard is "possible". I would have find it 'improbable' a few years ago even as an enthousiasth, i now could totally imagine a headset replacing my screen in a few years with a few improvements on.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by dylan604 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @10:52AM (#42282186)
What about Musk and push to reach Mars? While I haven't liked Musk from long ago, SpaceX has given some steely eyed rocket men/women a pretty successful playground.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by petra on Friday November 29, 2024 @10:30PM (#42279149)
Maybe it's rare to do curiosity driven research.

But from the days of Bell Labs, haven't we greatly improved our ability to connect between some research concept to the idea of doing something useful, somewhere ?

And once you have that you can be connected to grants or some pre-VC funding, which might suffice, given the tools we have for conceptual development of preliminary ideas(simulation, for ex.) is far better than what they had at Bell?

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by linguae on Friday November 29, 2024 @11:12PM (#42279346)
I believe this depends on the type of research that is being done. There are certain types of research that benefit from our current research grant system and from VC funding. The former is good when the research has a clear impact (whether it is social or business), and the latter is good when there is a good chance the research could be part of a successful business venture. There are also plenty of applied research labs where the research agenda is tightly aligned with business needs. We have seen the fruits of applied research in all sorts of areas, such as self-driving vehicles, Web-scale software infrastructure (MapReduce, Spark, BigTable, Spanner, etc.), deep learning, large language models, and more.

As big of a fan I am of Xerox PARC and Bell Labs, I don't want to come across as saying that the Bell Labs and Xerox PARC models of research are the only ways to do research. Indeed, Bell Labs couldn't convert many of its research ideas to products due to the agreement AT&T made with the federal government not to expand into other businesses, and Xerox PARC infamously failed to successfully monetize many of its inventions, and many of these researchers left Xerox for other companies who saw the business potential in their work, such as Apple, Adobe, and Microsoft, to name a few.

However, the problem with our current system of grants and VC funding is that they are not a good fit for riskier avenues of research where the impacts cannot be immediately seen, or the impact will take many years to develop. I am reminded of Alan Kay's comments (https://worrydream.com/2017-12-30-alan/) on how NSF grants require an explanation of how the researchers plan to solve the problem, which precludes exploratory research where one doesn't know how to attack the problem. Now, once again, this question from the NSF is not inappropriate; there are different phases of research, and coming up with an "attack plan" that is reasonable and is backed by a command of the prior art and a track record of solving other problems is part of research; all PhD programs have some sort of thesis proposal that requires answering the same question the NSF asks in its proposals. With that said, there is still the early phase of research where researchers are formulating the question, and where researchers are trying to figure out how they'd go about solving the problem. This early phase of research is part of research, too.

I think the funding situation for research depends on the type of research being done. For more applied research that has more obvious impact, especially business impact, then I believe there are plenty of opportunities out there that are more appropriate than old-school industrial research labs. However, for more speculative work where impacts are harder to see or where they are not immediate, the funding situation is much more difficult today compared to in the past where industrial research labs were less driven by the bottom line, and when academics had fewer "publish-or-perish" pressures.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by aprdm on Friday November 29, 2024 @11:30PM (#42279442)
What makes you think they don't fund it ?
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by fuzztester on Saturday November 30, 2024 @06:43AM (#42281006)
I thought I had read somewhere that 2 weeks vacation is more common in USA, at least for software companies, before things like "unlimited vacation". which is right, 3-4 or 2 weeks?
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by 0xCMP on Saturday November 30, 2024 @08:25AM (#42281488)
I think most "tech/bay" companies offer 3-4 weeks of vacation + holidays. Some have mandatory minimums a year and ability to accrue up to 30 days of PTO at a time in my experience. (e.g. not "unlimited", but specific amounts of PTO earned/used)
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by cgh on Saturday November 30, 2024 @11:32AM (#42282400)
I’ve had anywhere from three to six weeks depending on seniority.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by uLogMicheal on Friday November 29, 2024 @09:13PM (#42278847)
This is not the mindset of monopolies, cutting research for the sake of short term profits is the mindset of Wallstreet's modern monopoly.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by linguae on Friday November 29, 2024 @09:47PM (#42278992)
I agree with you that the modern corporate world seems to be allergic to anything that doesn't promise immediate profits. It takes more than a monopoly to have something like Bell Labs. To be more precise, monopolies tend to have the resources to create Bell Labs-style research labs, but it also takes another type of driving factor to create such a research lab, whether it is pleasing government regulators (I believe this is what motivated the founding of Bell Labs), staying ahead of existential threats (a major theme of 1970's-era Xerox PARC was the idea of a "paperless office," as Xerox saw the paperless office as an existential threat to their photocopier monopoly), or for purely giving back to society.

In short, Bell Labs-style institutions not only require consistent sources of funding that only monopolies can commit to, but they also require stakeholders to believe that funding such institutions is beneficial. We don't have those stakeholders today, though.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by uLogMicheal on Saturday November 30, 2024 @03:47AM (#42280429)
The time, motives, and management were different, the essence of my point was that in today's world even a monopoly would cut research for profit.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by teleforce on Saturday November 30, 2024 @01:03AM (#42279888)
That's my conclusion as well since now the closest we have to Bell Labs is the Google R&D where it has a virtual monopoly on Internet search and it's able to hire excellent well paid researchers [1].

[1] US weighs Google break-up in landmark antitrust case:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41784599

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by dev_tty01 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @03:28PM (#42283820)
Bell Labs was also funded by a massive monopoly.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by Qwertious on Sunday December 01, 2024 @07:20AM (#42288054)
>The truth is that kind of research can only happen with a very rich monopoly.

A classification which includes government funding, note.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by gwervc on Friday November 29, 2024 @09:22PM (#42278885)
> the only avenues I see for curiosity-driven researchers are becoming independently wealthy, living like a monk

I came to the same conclusion. This is the path I'm following (trying to set up a company and lean FIRE). It's sad in a way because those efforts and years could have been directed to research but we have to adapt.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by amtc80 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @10:05AM (#42281997)
I've seen that many times over by now, sort of done it myself. It doesn't really work. You end up replacing one problem for another. There is also a heavy dose of procrastination and escapism related to it. Think about how many could, and does, do it and but how few results there are.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by dylan604 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @10:48AM (#42282169)
All it took was one bored patent clerk spending idle time thinking about something that he couldn't just let go and now we have General Relativity and black holes.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by twilo on Saturday November 30, 2024 @10:59AM (#42282216)
That was mostly how the big scientific breakthroughs came in the 1800-1900s .. independent wealth.

That’s what a “scholar” is and Universities provided the perfect environment for that to thrive, which is no longer the case.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by bee_rider on Saturday November 30, 2024 @12:21PM (#42282735)
In the 1800’s and early 1900’s, maybe…

In post WW2 America though there was increased funding from the state, large research universities, institutes and national labs could be created. In the era where all that was really working at full speed, the “big scientific breakthrough” came at such a pace that it became hard to see what was big or not.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by WalterBright on Saturday November 30, 2024 @04:07PM (#42284042)
Edison's research lab was funded by companies wanting specific inventions developed.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by leoc on Saturday November 30, 2024 @12:18PM (#42282709)
I think that this was Paul Graham's original ambition for YC, really: a hope that some at least of the successful founders would choose to take their winnings and implement the next Lisp Machine and similar projects. Unfortunately, as with other things, winning the SV VC game just seems to incline people to either keep climbing that same greasy pole, or to do unstrenuous rich-guy things, or some combination of those two.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by mulmen on Saturday November 30, 2024 @03:28PM (#42283823)
What kind of an endorsement would a greasy-pole climber make? Special gloves? Scissor lifts?
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by tolerance on Friday November 29, 2024 @10:13PM (#42279083)
I was going to make a snarky remark like “Researchers are just going to have to write on Substack”.

Then I read this: http://mmcthrow-musings.blogspot.com/2020/10/interesting-opi...

I think the alt-economy that you describe may turn up soon. at least the one that I’m imagining that doesn’t involve registering for Substack.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by ndriscoll on Saturday November 30, 2024 @09:32AM (#42281825)
> Our economy promotes short-term gains and not long-term initiatives; I blame over 30 years of artificially-low interest rates for this.

Don't low interest rates promote long-term thinking, perhaps to an absurd degree (e.g. the "it's okay that we hemorrhage money price dumping for 10 years as long as we develop a monopoly" playbook)? Bigger interest rate = bigger discount for present value of a future reward.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by Electricniko on Saturday November 30, 2024 @12:10PM (#42282647)
I'm guessing that they're referring to the practice of investors borrowing with low interest rates to buy large amounts of stock in a company, then milking the company of all its value for short term gains. Unless there's a significant plan in place, many companies can't really get away with long term playbooks if they are responsible to shareholders using ownership for short term gains (so they can quickly move to the next money making asset).
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by ricksunny on Saturday November 30, 2024 @01:14AM (#42279926)
I hope that the #DeSci movement wlll help with this. ResearchHub is the closest so far in the soce to putting a financially sustainable crowdsourced research ecosystem together, but its early days.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by muzster on Saturday November 30, 2024 @08:18AM (#42281453)
I lament the decline also. Hopefully all of that lost energy has been put into good use on side projects.

On a tangent, but think it's related, the curiosity, exploration and research by the kids maybe stalling too.

Just a thought.

Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by MaysonL on Saturday November 30, 2024 @01:43PM (#42283218)
Back in 1963, I had the privilege of participating in a program the summer before my senior year of high school. This was at the research lab of GE in Schenectady. I was working (not very productively) on a project involving platinum catalyst of hydrocarbons – what eventually became catalytic converters. The kid who tutored me in calculus (and later won a MacArthur grant and founded his own think tank) worked on what was then called nuclear magnetic resonance or NMR. Now it’s the guts or MRI machines (they left off the “nuclear” for PR reasons. I wonder how many kids these days have the chance to do shit like that, and if there are any labs where long-term research like that is funded.
Re:The Influence of Bell Labs by rr808 on Saturday November 30, 2024 @04:03PM (#42284014)
I think Fang companies have a lot of curiosity driven research, just the output is open source software instead of physical products. AI especially.