News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mrtksn on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:02AM (#42105550)
Very interesting, so it's the US without access to the cutting edge technology now? From official US standpoint, Taiwan is China therefore in a sense China is cutting US off. Well of course the reality is more intricate, probably this is just Taiwan playing its hands to secure US guarantees but if China ends up taking Taiwan the end result will be the same.

We live in really interesting times. Hope this CHIP act stuff and the re-industrialization of US works out.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by tester756 on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:13AM (#42105600)
tbf it aint the news

It was known for some longer peroid of time that TSMC is not

going to do leading edge node outside the Taiwan. They want the "Silicon Shield" after all

This announcement seems to be related more to Trump than anything else.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by dragonelite on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:30AM (#42105669)
But without customers(US big tech) who will buy 2nm chips, Huawei is not allowed. So im fully convinced that TSMC will become ASMC within a decade. The US has to much levers they can pull, the only buyers, chemicals, can export control key parts of ASML EUV machine, etc.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by tester756 on Monday November 11, 2024 @05:06AM (#42105899)
Why US big tech wouldnt buy it? It is just that manufacturing has to be on Taiwan's soil.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by KeplerBoy on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:43AM (#42105750)
There is simply no way the west will always rely on fabs so close to mainland China.

The US might be able to defend Taiwan from being conquered, but nobody can protect the fabs from being shelled.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by makeitdouble on Monday November 11, 2024 @05:09AM (#42105914)
> There is simply no way the west will always rely [...]

This is the "on an infinite timescale" argument I think. It's been decades now that we rely on Taiwan, and the estimate give a few more decades to catch up if we start getting real serious about it right now, assuming Taiwan doesn't keep its lead.

So yes, eventually things might change. But that won't be tomorrow, or the day after.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by tester756 on Monday November 11, 2024 @05:06AM (#42105897)
Of course

Thats why US & EU Chips Act are a thing and Intel is building fabs.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by Barrin92 on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:08AM (#42105581)
>so it's the US without access to the cutting edge technology now?

no, but the newest cutting edge chips can't be manufactured in Arizona right now. US companies can still purchase them. It's a pretty obvious hedge against geopolitical insecurity and support from the US to keep the most advanced manufacturing capacity in Taiwan at any given time.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mrtksn on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:12AM (#42105593)
It can be one tariff away from not letting US companies purchase them.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by cma on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:31AM (#42105672)
The US did the early EUV research (EUV LLC public private partnership), and acquired security veto power over ASML exports when transferring their portion of the tech to them, which TSMC can't do anything without.

Though I don't know that that lasts if we pull out of NATO...

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mrtksn on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:37AM (#42105720)
Right, currently I'm in Turkey and Turks like to brag about the civilizations who lived here and did the early research on maths, physics and medical sciences.

However, ASML is a EU company and at this very moment Trump is threatening EU and he said that EU is just as bad as China and will punish the Europeans. What if the relations between US and EU sour to the point that US is cut off from EUV machines and the Europeans cut a deal with Russia and China instead and get the energy and technology in EU? Anti-American forces are on rise in Europe.

Even if US manages to get everything it needs, it will be ~300M people and if Trump manages to alienate enough partners that will be total market size for the fabs and EUV tech as it wouldn't be the only one in town doing it. In these extremely large scale investment stuff, you need to be serving billions of people to make economical sense. Fabs in US with no access to the entire globe is a worse position than Fabs in China with no access to the entire globe simply by the 5x the population difference and with US adopting protectionist stance it doesn't seem like it would be China who doesn't have access to the global markets.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by user90131313 on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:49AM (#42105785)
EU and USA are Nato partners and also part of entire western. China and others are not.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mrtksn on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:53AM (#42105807)
See, the new president-elect doesn't like Nato and already considered leaving it in his previous turn. US also demonstrated reluctance to fulfill its commitment. The established world order is a bust, ships are going around Africa because NATO is unable to secure passage through the Suez canal.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by talldayo on Friday November 15, 2024 @12:36PM (#42149007)
> What if the relations between US and EU sour to the point that US is cut off from EUV machines and the Europeans cut a deal with Russia and China instead

That will not happen. I am an American, I greatly dislike Trump, but fundamentally you have to understand that if Taiwan is a stable enough country to sell EUV machines to, America's money is good enough as well. There is just no chance the EU plays this card, even with NATO threatened as a whole - selling EUV to Russia and China would be actual industry suicide with no tangible benefits besides the scorched-earth policy.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by InsideOutSanta on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:42AM (#42105743)
This is Taiwan forcing the US to protect it from China.

According to Taiwan, its local TSMC factories is poison-pilled. If China invades, all of ASML's tech gets remote-disabled. Since the US economy strongly depends on these chips, they have no choice but to stand by Taiwan. If, on the other hand, the US has the capability to make these chips on their own, that fundamentally changes the situation.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mytailorisrich on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:59AM (#42105848)
This does give Taiwan more leverage to negotiate support and nudge the US into a firmer position but ultimately, should an invasion occur the US wouldn't send troops either way. The US can't have a direct war against China.

China can't have a direct war against the US, either. So, like with Russia it's a calibrated game and proxy conflicts (which is what Taiwan would be)

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by makeitdouble on Monday November 11, 2024 @05:05AM (#42105895)
I have the feeling if the US just raised their hands in the air at a Chinese invasion, most of Taiwan would probably choose to roll with China.

Even if the machinery is effectively destroyed, the talent pool could be enough to accelerate rebuilding the technology in China, so that scenario is I think damaging to the US/the west to a degree that exceeds the Ukraine conflict many folds.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by greatgib on Sunday November 24, 2024 @08:07AM (#42227745)
Taiwanese were raised with a spirit of freedom and democracy, so no, they will not go along with China if it was to happen.

Look at how HK was destroyed.

What will probably happen is that the smartest and skillets one will flee, most probably to US and Europe, to our advantage. There will be a carnage of repression with abusing jailing and deportation for the one staying to resist to défend freedom.

And China will import mass of Chinese immigrants to replace the majority of the population of the island in a few years. Then it will become just another shitty Chinese island with a weak economy and little activity. But the technology parks will certainly not continue to run like if it was nothing.

In the same way that HK is mostly deserted nowadays.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by mrtksn on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:50AM (#42105794)
I get that but the US already lost most of its credibility in Ukraine. Factories might be poison pilled but that's not human physiology and the analogy doesn't stand when China can simply buy new ASML machines in the near future as the EU being threatened by Trump already.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by DeathArrow on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:50AM (#42105791)
> If, on the other hand, the US has the capability to make these chips on their own, that fundamentally changes the situation.

The US can fab 2nm if they buy the machines from ASML.

Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by Arnt on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:53AM (#42105806)
You can run 100m in nine seconds if you buy the shoes from Nike.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by ajb257 on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:54AM (#42105810)
Just because you can buy the tools doesn't mean you know how to use them.
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by agumonkey on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:58AM (#42105843)
How difficult would it be to poach TSMC employees ? (just asking)
Re:TSMC cannot make 2nm chips abroad now: MOEA by nicoburns on Monday November 11, 2024 @04:57AM (#42105837)
The US (intel) does buy ASML machines. And they probably will eventually get to 2nm chips, but they're currently a yesrs behind TSMC.