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Re:DRAM Changed the World by hajile on Tuesday October 22, 2024 @11:47PM (#41921614)
Years ago.

DRAM uses a capacitor. Those capacitors essentially hit a hard limit at around 400MHz for our traditional materials a very long time ago. This means that if you need to sequentially read random locations from RAM, you can't do it faster than 400MHz. Our only answer here is better AI prefetchers and less-random memory patterns in our software (the penalty for not prefetching is so great that theoretically less efficient algorithms can suddenly become more efficient if they are simply more predictable).

As to capacitor sizes, we've been at the volume limit for quite a while. When the capacitor is discharged, we must amplify the charge. That gets harder as the charge gets weaker and there's a fundamental limit to how small you can go. Right now, each capacitor has somewhere in the range of a mere 40,000 electrons holding the charge. Going lower dramatically increases the complexity of trying to tell the signal from the noise and dealing with ever-increasing quantum effects.

Getting more capacitors closer means a smaller diameter, but keeping the same volume means making the cylinder longer. You quickly reach a point where even dramatic increases in height (something very complicated to do in silicon) give only minuscule decreases in diameter.

Re:DRAM Changed the World by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @01:14AM (#41922034)
If that's the case, why haven't we switched to SRAM? Isn't it only about 4x the price at any given process node?
Re:DRAM Changed the World by RF_Savage on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @01:22AM (#41922070)
That 4x the price does also explain why it has not happened.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by guerrilla on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @04:00AM (#41922850)
Yeah but why don't we have like 500MB of SRAM per 8GB of RAM. Certain addresses could be faster, in the same way /dev/shm/ is faster.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by turtles3 on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @04:19AM (#41922960)
This is sort of the role that L3 cache plays already. Your proposal would be effectively an upgradable L4 cache. No idea if the economics on that are worth it vs bigger DRAM so you have less pressure on the nvme disk.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by guerrilla on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @05:24AM (#41923328)
Cache is not general purpose as far as I know. I want to be able to do whatever I want with it.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by MichaelZuo on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @07:38AM (#41923926)
Where’s the market demand for that?
Re:DRAM Changed the World by ghaff on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @08:31AM (#41924355)
Yeah, you’re basically betting that people will put a lot of effort in trying to out/optimize the hardware and perhaps to some degree the OS. Not a good bet.

When SMP first came out we had one large customer that wanted to manually handle scheduling themselves. That didn’t last long.

Re:DRAM Changed the World by guerrilla on Friday October 25, 2024 @07:19AM (#41944166)
Effort? It's not like it's hard to map an SRAM chip to whatever address you want and expose it raw or as a block device. That's a 100 LOC kernel module.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by guerrilla on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @12:53PM (#41926889)
Where is the market demand for faster RAM? This isn't a good question.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by MichaelZuo on Sunday October 27, 2024 @08:26AM (#41962058)
Gamers, 3D modelling professionals, IBM, HP, ORACLE, many IT departments, etc… ?
Re:DRAM Changed the World by myself248 on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @11:44AM (#41926218)
Coreboot and some other low-level stuff uses cache-as-RAM during early steps of the boot process.

There was briefly a product called vCage loading a whole secure hypervisor into cache-as-RAM, with a goal of being secure against DRAM-remanence ("cold-boot") attacks where the DIMMs are fast-chilled to slow charge leakage and removed from the target system to dump their contents. Since the whole secure perimeter was on-die in the CPU, it could use memory encryption to treat the DRAM as untrusted.

So, yeah, you can do it. It's funky.

Re:DRAM Changed the World by crest on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @10:35AM (#41925449)
AMD offers CPUs with over 768MiB of cache if you're willing and able to afford them.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by rasz on Thursday October 24, 2024 @01:03AM (#41932090)
There used to be a DRAM with build-in SRAM cache called EDRAM (Enhanced DRAM, not to be confused with eDRAM Embedded DRAM).

• 2Kbit SRAM Cache Memory for 15ns Random Reads Within a Page

• Fast 4Mbit DRAM Array for 35ns Access to Any New Page

• Write Posting Register for 15ns Random Writes and Burst Writes Within a Page (Hit or Miss)

• 256-byte Wide DRAM to SRAM Bus for 7.3 Gigabytes/Sec Cache Fill

• On-chip Cache Hit/Miss Comparators Maintain Cache Coherency on Writes

Afaik only ever manufactured by a single vendor Ramtron https://bitsavers.computerhistory.org/components/ramtron/_da... and only ever used in two products:

- Mylex DAC960 RAID controller

- Octek HIPPO DCA II 486-33 PC motherboard https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/octek-hippo-dca-ii-48...

Re:DRAM Changed the World by aidenn0 on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @03:12PM (#41928371)
If it were even 20% faster than DRAM, there would be a market for it at the higher price. The post I replied to was asserting that there was a physical limit of 400MHz for DRAM entirely due to the capacitor. If SRAM could run with lower latency, memory-bound workloads would get comparably faster.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by kstrauser on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @11:20AM (#41925947)
What does “faster than 400MHz” mean in this context? Does that mean you can’t ask for a unit of memory from it more than 400M times a second? If so, what’s the basic unit there, a bit? A word?

I built a little CPU in undergrad but never got around to building RAM and admit it’s still kind of a black box to me.

Bonus question: When I had an Amiga, we’d buy 50 or 60ns RAM. Any idea what that number meant, or what today’s equivalent would be?

Re:DRAM Changed the World by hajile on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @02:10PM (#41927738)
The capacitors take time to charge and discharge. You can't do that more than around 400MHz with current materials. You are correct that it means you can't access the same bit of memory more than 400M/sec. This is the same whether you are accessing 1bit or 1M bits because the individual capacitors that make up those bits can't be charged/discharged any faster.

When we moved from SDR to DDR1, latencies dropped from 20-25ns to about 15ns too, but if you run the math, we've been at 13-17ns of latency ever since.

Re:DRAM Changed the World by rasz on Thursday October 24, 2024 @12:45AM (#41931988)
Yep, we pretty much hit a wall during DDR2 rein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_latency#Memory_timing_exam...
Re:DRAM Changed the World by anticensor on Friday October 25, 2024 @10:25PM (#41952016)
No, 7.5 to 9.75ns during the DDR4 rein (DDR4-4266), according to that page.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by rasz on Saturday October 26, 2024 @02:31AM (#41952978)
DDR2-1066 CL4 is also 7.5ns to first data.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by anticensor on Saturday October 26, 2024 @05:56AM (#41953757)
But DDR2-1066 is worse in second and later accesses.
Re:DRAM Changed the World by rasz on Sunday October 27, 2024 @06:22PM (#41966164)
Consequent accesses are measuring bus speed, not actual DRAM cell latency. At that point data is already loaded into a row of sense amplifiers.