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Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by weinzierl on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:21PM (#41583598)
Isn't it the other way around?

SEO text carefully tuned to tf-idf metrics and keyword stuffed to them empirically determined threshold Google just allows should have unnatural word frequencies.

LLM content should just enhance and cement the status quo word frequencies.

Outliers like the word "delve" could just be sentinels, carefully placed like trap streets on a map.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by derefr on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:50PM (#41583935)
1. People don't generally use the (big, whole-web-corpus-trained) general-purpose LLM base-models to generate bot slop for the web. Paying per API call to generate that kind of stuff would be far too expensive; it'd be like paying for eStamps to send spam email. Spambot developers use smaller open-source models, trained on much smaller corpuses, sized and quantized to generate text that's "just good enough" to pass muster. This creates a sampling bias in the word-associational "knowledge" the model is working from when generating.

2. Given how LLMs work, a prompt is a bias — they're one-and-the-same. You can't ask an LLM to write you a mystery novel without it somewhat adopting the writing quirks common to the particular mystery novels it has "read." Even the writing style you use in your prompt influences this bias. (It's common advice among "AI character" chatbot authors, to write the "character card" describing a character, in the style that you want the character speaking in, for exactly this reason.) Whatever prompt the developer uses, is going to bias the bot away from the statistical norm, toward the writing-style elements that exist within whatever hypersphere of association-space contains plausible completions of the prompt.

3. Bot authors do SEO too! They take the tf-idf metrics and keyword stuffing, and turn it into training data to fine-tune models, in effect creating "automated SEO experts" that write in the SEO-compatible style by default. (And in so doing, they introduce unintentional further bias, given that the SEO-optimized training dataset likely is not an otherwise-perfect representative sampling of writing style for the target language.)

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by travisjungroth on Thursday September 19, 2024 @12:58AM (#41588658)
On point 1, that’s surprising to me. A 2,000 word blog post would be 10 cents with GPT-4o. So you put out 1,000 of them, which is a lot, for $100.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by brazzy on Thursday September 19, 2024 @01:58AM (#41588978)
But then you'll be competing for clicks with others who put out 1,000,000 posts for less costs because they used a small, self hosted model.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by baq on Thursday September 19, 2024 @02:59AM (#41589302)
if you are a sales & marketing intern, have a potato laptop and $100 budget to spend on seo, you aren't going to be self hosting anything even if you know what that means.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by nerdponx on Thursday September 19, 2024 @04:44AM (#41589855)
This is about high-volume blog/news-spam created specifically to serve ads and affiliate links, not about occasional content marketing for legitimate companies.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by derefr on Thursday September 19, 2024 @12:31PM (#41593608)
There are two costs associated with using a hosted inference platform: the OpEx of API calls, and the CapEx of setting up an account in the first place. This second cost is usually trivial, as it just requires things any regular person already has: an SSO account, a phone number for KYC, etc.

But, insofar as your use-case is against the TOUs of the big proprietary inference platforms, this second cost quickly swamps the first cost. They keep banning you, and you keep having to buy new dark-web credentials to come back.

Given this, it’s a lot cheaper and more reliable — you might summarize these as “more predictable costs” — to design a system around a substrate whose “immune system” won’t constantly be trying to kill the system. Which means either your own hardware, or a “being your own model” inference platform like RunPod/Vast/etc.

(Now consider that there are a bunch of fly-by-night BYO-model hosted inference platforms, that are charging unsustainable flat-rate subscription prices for use of their hardware. Why do these exist? Should be obvious now, given the facts already laid out: these are people doing TOU-violating things who decided to build their own cluster for doing them… and then realized that they had spare capacity on that cluster that they could sell.)

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by travisjungroth on Thursday September 19, 2024 @03:07PM (#41595229)
This makes sense. But now I’m wondering if people here are speaking from experience or reasoning their way into it. Like are there direct reports of which models people are using for blogspam, or is it just what seems rational?
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by lbhdc on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @02:28PM (#41583672)
> LLM content should just enhance and cement the status quo word frequencies.

TFA mentions this hasn't been the case.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by flakiness on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:49PM (#41586484)
Would you mind dropping the link talking about this point? (context: I'm a total outsider and have no idea what TFA is.)
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by girvo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:58PM (#41586563)
TFA means "the featured article", so in this case the "Why wordfreq will not be updated" link we're talking about.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by adastra22 on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @07:15PM (#41586666)
To be pedantic, the F in TFA has the same meaning as the F in RTFM.

It’s the same origin. On Slashdot (the HN of the early 00’s) people would admonish others to RTFA. Then they started using it as a referent: TFA was the thing you were supposed to have read.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by girvo on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @10:59PM (#41588057)
Oh that I'm aware of, but it's softened over time too haha

I miss the old Atomic MPC forums in the ~00s.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by jnordwick on Thursday September 19, 2024 @08:52AM (#41591344)
The Fucking Article, from RTFA - Read the Fucking Article - and RTFM - Read the Fucking Manual/Manpage
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by mlsu on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:32PM (#41586324)
But you can already see it with Delve. Mistral uses "delve" more than baseline, because it was trained on GPT.

So it's classic positive feedback. LLM uses delve more, delve appears in training data more, LLM uses delve more...

Who knows what other semantic quirks are being amplified like this. It could be something much more subtle, like cadence or sentence structure. I already notice that GPT has a "tone" and Claude has a "tone" and they're all sort of "GPT-like." I've read comments online that stop and make me question whether they're coming from a bot, just because their word choice and structure echoes GPT. It will sink into human writing too, since everyone is learning in high school and college that the way you write is by asking GPT for a first draft and then tweaking it (or not).

Unfortunately, I think human and machine generated text are entirely miscible. There is no "baseline" outside the machines, other than from pre-2022 text. Like pre-atomic steel.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by taneq on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:37PM (#41586372)
> LLM uses delve more, delve appears in training data more, LLM uses delve more...

Some day we may view this as the beginnings of machine culture.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by mlsu on Wednesday September 18, 2024 @06:40PM (#41586397)
Oh no, it's been here for quite a while. Our culture is already heavily glued to the machine. The way we express ourselves, the language we use, even our very self-conception originates increasingly in online spaces.

Have you ever seen someone use their smartphone? They're not "here," they are "there." Forming themselves in cyberspace -- or being formed, by the machine.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by taneq on Thursday September 19, 2024 @08:24AM (#41591080)
chat is this real?
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by Matumio on Monday September 23, 2024 @10:59AM (#41626879)
I think they meant culture in the sense of knowledge that gets passed down from one generation to the next. Not a human culture of using machines, but a machine culture of using human languages.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by mlsu on Monday September 23, 2024 @12:52PM (#41628069)
Consider that the algorithm cannot evolve without human interaction. That's what I'm saying, it's a symbiote to us. If you consider "weights in the Instagram recommendation algorithm" to be "the machine", what we are talking about here has been happening for a long time now and has seen many generations, with each entity influencing the other.

I don't think we'll have true machine culture until we have fully autonomous agents in the wild that are interacting with the world independently on its own terms. Right now the substrate is text which comes from a human mind -- it does not arise naturally from nothing. So the machine is a symbiote for now until we solve some difficult robotics problems.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by Matumio on Friday September 27, 2024 @03:25AM (#41667325)
Hm, it's probably true that recommendation algorithms do something similar already, training on "human likes" that were influenced by the previous generation. But "human language" is a richer medium to carry information.

I don't think you need to be independent or autonomous to develop a culture. And a lot of human culture was passed down over generations without understanding why it worked. We just imitate the behaviour and rituals from our most successful ancestors or role models.

If new LLMs can access the past generation's knowledge of how to please human evaluators, they will use it. It's not a deliberate decision by an "agent", it's just the best text source to copy from. This is a new feedback loop between generations of assistants, and it bypasses whatever the human designer had in mind. Phrases like "it is always best to ask an expert" will pop up just because you tuned the LLM to sound like a helpful assistant, and that's what helpful assistants sound like in the training data. You'd have to actively steer the new generation away from using their ancestral knowledge.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of "culture" is. There is no targeted teaching of the next generation, for example - but is this a requirement? I agree that talking about "machine culture" right now sounds like a stretch, but now I wonder what pieces are actually missing.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by taneq on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @12:12AM (#41633063)
Yep I was going for more "the machines have their own culture increasingly independent from ours."
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by bryanrasmussen on Thursday September 19, 2024 @01:12AM (#41588735)
is the use of miscible here a clue? Or just some workplace vocabulary you've adapted analogically?
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by mlsu on Thursday September 19, 2024 @02:18AM (#41589099)
Human me just thought it was a good word for this. It implies some irreversible process of mixing, I think that characterizes this process really well.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by noduerme on Thursday September 19, 2024 @04:06AM (#41589628)
There were dozens of 20th Century ideological movements which developed their own forms of "Newspeak" in their own native languages. Largely, natural human dialog between native speakers and between those opposed to the prevailing regime recoils violently at stilted, official, or just "uncool" usages in daily vernacular. So I wouldn't be too surprised to see a sharp downtick in the popular use of any word that becomes subject to an LLM's positive-feedback loop.

Far from saying the pool of language is now polluted, I think we now have a great data set to begin to discern authentic from inauthentic human language. Although sure, people on the fringes could get caught in a false positive for being bots, like you or I.

The biggest LLM of them all is the daily driver of all new linguistic innovation: Human society, in all its daily interactions. The quintillions of daily phrases exchanged and forever mutating around the globe vastly eclipses anything any hardware could ever emulate given the current energy constraints. Software LLMs are just a state machine stuck in a moment in time. At best they will always lag, the way Stalinist language lagged years behind rhe patois of average Russians.

If there is one distinctly human trait, it's sniffing out anyone who sounds suspiciously inauthentic. (Sadly, it's also the trait that leads to every kind of conspiracy theorizing imaginable; but this too probably confers in some cases an evolutionary advantage).

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by bryanrasmussen on Thursday September 19, 2024 @04:17AM (#41589695)
humans also lag humans, the future may already be spoken, but the slang is not evenly memed out yet.
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by mlsu on Monday September 23, 2024 @02:56PM (#41629372)
Really insightful.

I'm a little more cautious though. I think GPT will be way more integrated, simply because it's useful. Stalinist language was artificial, in the sense that it was basically imposed on you from outside for no good reason. When you wanted to get real stuff done (either talking to close friends, being productive with colleagues, etc) you wouldn't use socialist newspeak because it got in the way. GPT will be imposed by the outside world, but it's actually a useful thing to be able to converse with a language model; you'll do it every day at work, when buying things, when using your phone/PC.

And also, unlike in USSR times, so much of our communication is online and visible. It would not surprise me if we develop a model that can train continuously on the firehose. Text is small. Data rate of every person on earth speaking simultaneously:

- 150 words per minute spoken

- 150 words × (5 characters/word + 1 space) = 150 × 6 = 900 characters per minute

- 1 byte per char = 900 bytes/min = 15 bytes/sec

- 15 bytes / sec * 8,000,000,000 people speaking continuously = 120 gigabytes/second

That's a lot but it's not even the bandwidth of a single consumer GPU.

Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by jazzyjackson on Thursday September 19, 2024 @03:50AM (#41589533)
If you think that's niche wait til you hear about man-machine miscegenation
Re:Why wordfreq will not be updated by tigerlily on Thursday September 19, 2024 @05:27AM (#41590044)

  Too deep we delved, and awoke the ancient delves.