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Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by moffkalast on Monday September 16, 2024 @12:49PM (#41557981)
Eh I don't think humans will really be a viable concept in a few hundred years if this keeps up. We'll simply be too fragile and dumb for anything.

I see this as a good thing though, the only thing that separates us from everything else in the universe is our inteligence, in some sense we are that inteligence and this is the next evolutionary step it needs to finally break out from the confines of a tiny 20W brain that's been pushed as far as it practically can be.

When you no longer need to consume energy constantly unless you die, are functionally immortal and can hibernate for a thousand years, you eat only sunlight, don't get cancer from radiation or bone loss from zero gravity... the galaxy becomes your oyster.

Evolution, Morpheus, evolution. Like the dinosaur ;)

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by polotics on Monday September 16, 2024 @12:58PM (#41558069)
We are extremely energy-efficient. My lunch was one fruit, had no breakfast, a bit hungry but can still type in the sequence of word you're reading right now. Compare this with the wattage of OpenAI, from what I can find 2.9 Watt-hours for one query, so 2.4 kcal, ie. the whole daily-maintenance food need for an average man...
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by sva_ on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:12PM (#41558217)
Other than the cal/kcal issue, I'm also curious if this comparison really pans out. If you had a fusion power plant, you could power processors with it, but how does raw power translate into human food? Even if you had some formula like Soylent Green, many humans would probably not cooperate after a while
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by simonbw on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:11PM (#41558203)
I think your math is off by a bit. A Calorie and a watt-hour are approximately equal. Humans need about 2000 Calories per day. So 2.9 watt-hours is more like the amount of energy a human needs in a minute.

I think the confusion might come from the Calorie/calorie difference, i.e. 1 Calorie = 1000 calories = 1 kcal.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by naming_the_user on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:06PM (#41558148)
You're missing a few orders of magnitude here - the daily food intake of a man is 2400kcal, not 2.4kcal.

We are still much more efficient mind, 2400kcal is approx 2.7kWh so about 1000 GPT queries if your 2.9Wh figure is correct (wow!)

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by teraflop on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:04PM (#41558131)
You're off by a factor of 1,000. The "calories" used for nutritional purposes are actually kilocalories, and a typical adult diet is about 2,000 kcal per day.
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by isoprophlex on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:05PM (#41558146)
I think you mean 2.4 Mcal, or 2400 kcal, to keep a man alive for a day...
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by moffkalast on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:11PM (#41558206)
Efficiency doesn't matter if you have spare energy to use and can't. We have all the food we can eat and we remain dumb fucks.

With nuclear power and a way to scale up we could build a gigawatt tier brain if we wanted to.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by SirHumphrey on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:36PM (#41558461)
I think there exists a point, where AI stops making sense in a cost equation. Currently we are well accustomed that machines are cheap and humans are expensive, and anything that can be done by machine instead of by a human means a cost reduction. At some point that probably stops, because the amount of compute you need to run larger and larger models means that humans can become cost competitive. It's a bit like in manufacturing, where cost of robotization is sometimes more than just the cost of employing humans.

And in the end, this long term predictions based on where we are now and how fast we are moving are always a bit iffy. Nobody really know what challenges must current AI overcome to become AGI (if that even means anything).

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by moffkalast on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:48PM (#41558609)
Yeah it's just what I suppose might be the inevitable outcome for the very far future, assuming incremental improvements in all forms over a long time.

For the short term it's honestly way harder to say, there could easily be another 50 year winter in between. But machines improve, and humans don't, so as long as non-zero progress is made it's a virtual certainty.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by javaunsafe2019 on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:00PM (#41558090)
I truly believe that someone writing such a comment is deeply unhappy with his life and can’t value humanity as it should be
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by Semaphor on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:10PM (#41558190)
And who is to say how it should be? You? And what does it even mean, is the great thing about humanity the last few decades? There last few years? Surely humanity as recent as a few hundred years ago was not already as it should be?
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by nakeru on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:07PM (#41558169)
Not OP of your answer, but I'm happy with my life. Still, I can't value humanity much when we're living the fastest extinction even ever because of, well, humanity. And we won't fix it. I'm happy because none of these silly "issues" like AI will matter one iota in a couple of decades.
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by justupvoting on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:08PM (#41558175)
"A man's at odds to know his mind cause his mind is aught he has to know it with. He can know his heart, but he dont want to. Rightly so. Best not to look in there. It aint the heart of a creature that is bound in the way that God has set for it. You can find meanness in the least of creatures, but when God made man the devil was at his elbow. A creature that can do anything. Make a machine. And a machine to make the machine. And evil that can run itself a thousand years, no need to tend it."
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by moffkalast on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:18PM (#41558264)
We are so hardwired for human exceptionalism that we can't even entertain the thought of there ever being something better that replaces us, which is what's has occurred for 99.9% of species so far and makes it a statistical certainty. It's hubris manifest to think that we'll live unchanged until the heat death of the universe.
Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by drdaeman on Monday September 16, 2024 @02:39PM (#41559122)
> can’t value humanity as it should be

It's hard to see a value in humanity when most of the globe is a giant dumpster fire. We currently have:

1. United States, a corporate-owned two-party clusterfuck, potentially on a brink of failing into an autocracy. Because the world is in post-ironic phase, this is all turned into a TV show for the mass entertainment. 2. Russia, a kleptocracy turned into an authoritarian police state run by an ex-KGB ex-Stasi nazi. Always messed up, badly, waging wars as a hobby. Doing their best to fuck up things abroad so they aren't alone, and fuck things up domestically so people are more obedient (dictatorship 101: people always behave "better", when their base needs are just barely satisfied so their focus is all on survival). 3. Middle East, where all things are so fucked up beyond recognition I don't even... 4. China, another anti-utopia lover's dream, with obligatory facade of "harmony" and "prosperity". Don't know much about their internal affairs, to be honest, but don't see any good coming out of it. 5. Africa isn't doing any better, we just hear and care less about their mess here because we have our own mess at home. 6. A bunch of ticking bombs (pollution, global warming, overpopulation crises) so we won't get bored by the old wars alone.

And all of this stems up from the fundamental issue of human nature. Innate high susceptibility to things that sound nice (aka populism) leading up to blind faith, constantly abused by high achiever sociopaths, toppling societies left and right despite all the checks and balances, wreaking havoc. We know about logical fallacies, but still - en masse/at scale - fail at those, badly. We only realize the writings were on the wall all the time, when we're already stuck deep in the mess we've made ourselves.

The worst part of it? There seems to be no solution. At least not that I've ever heard of. Pandemics showed us that a global challenge doesn't reunite people but rather gets abused to divides them further, so even evil aliens' arrival or GAI-gone-Skynet most likely won't change anything.

Our best chances are achieving global post-scarcity and/or solving death (so, yeah, very realistic goals straight outta sci-fi books /s), but not even those are guaranteed to work - just a slim chance that maybe if those major issues are out of the picture something will change and maybe there will be a slim chance it won't get abused for worse. Transhumanism might be another chance (if our monkey brains are a problem, maybe we can patch them up or possibly hop over to something else) but I have my doubts.

What's to value? That humans have coping mechanisms that lets them just ignore all the crap going around and live happily in their imaginary safety bubbles, until it's their time and the frog is finally notices it's being boiled?

(Please don't get me wrong, zero hate here - except the hate for all the abusers and hate for all the mess happening. I love humans, but I'm deeply saddened that something is really wrong with us that we just can't get our shit straight for multiple millennia, stepping on the same rake over and over.)

Yea, I guess I'm deeply unhappy.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by noah_buddy on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:14PM (#41558231)
Suppose you are right. From a genetic perspective, the most logical course of hypothetical action is to immediately start smashing computers, learning how to blow up terminators, and to oppose and undermine anyone that thinks like you.

Now, I actually do not believe you are right and I am more inclined to believe that artificial intelligence stemming from humanity would see the value in human ideals. Certain things like love, morality, and humility have been deeply held ideals for millennia. I would suppose that an AI would, to some extent, value these things too. Think more “The Day the Earth Stood Still” than Terminator.

This is all conjecture, but one thing I would suggest to you: if you see the natural evolution of your own species to be the removal of itself, you probably should be nowhere near AI or alignment. What you suggest is akin to world-wide genocide. Ironically, in my estimation, you are less aware of humanity than AI will be.

Re:Stephen Fry – AI: A Means to an End or a Means to Our End? by moffkalast on Monday September 16, 2024 @01:23PM (#41558329)
I think you misunderstand, that's exactly what I'm saying. The AI we make will replace us because it will functionally be us in every way. Even unaligned LLM base models of the current gen embody our values and ideals better than we ever could.

The way I imagine it you could talk to one of these things and it would appear human, except it would know everything that is known, be a master of everything that can be done, and could fax itself to Mars over a laser in 20 minutes. Being software is such a huge advantage, since you can just swap your body for whatever you need to do or wherever you need to be.

I'm sure humans will still be around long into the future, but they won't be doing anything notable because we won't be capable of thinking on a cutting edge level. Not entirely unlike what a cat or a dog is to us now. The inteligence disparity will probably be similar anyway.