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Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by bokonist on Saturday June 23, 2012 @12:57AM (#4150088)
The fundamental problem is that the monetary systems of the modern world are all designed on the Wile E. Coyote principle. As long as you never look down, the system works.

In the U.S. there is ~$14 trillion in government debt. There exists tens of trillion more in private debt. But only $2 trillion exists in bonafide, actual, real honest-to-goodness dollars (I'm including in that count accounts at the federal reserve, not just paper money).

How is this system sustainable? How can any of this debt ever be repaid? Well, since everyone knows the government can print money, most people do not worry about the government being insolvent. A dollar T-Bill is as good as a dollar green bill, both are backed by the full faith and credit of the USG. If the government needs to, it can always print money to redeem mature treasury debt. Since no one worries about insolvency, most people would rather have treasury bills (or a deposit account or CD backed by TBills) because they pay interest. So the $14 trillion rolls over in perpetuity. In reality, $14 trillion is not really debt, since it is nonsensical to speak of debt that one owes oneself and can negate by printing paper. The $14 trillion is the money supply - T-Bills are just a dividend paying form of money.

However, the situation in Europe is much more sticky. Europe runs the same type of monetary system. There are tens of trillions in Euro denominated debt, but only $1.3 trillion in actual bonafide Euros. However - unlike with the dollar - the countries that created this debt do not have the power to create Euros. So as suddenly as markets lose confidence in the debt, it becomes impossible to roll over the debt and pay it off. There simply are not enough Euros in the world to pay off even a small amount of debt. Every single country in Europe would be insolvent if investors look down and lose confidence. Even Germany could not pay its debt if investors demanded redemption at maturity The European Union government could order the european central bank to print money to buy out the debt, but this creates all sorts of political conflict as it results in transferring real wealth from country A to country B.

So that's why Europe is stuck. It adopted a monetary system that works when the government controls the currency, and adopted it in a situation where governments cannot print money. No one in Europe has the brains or authority to actually refactor and re-architect the system, so they are just muddling around, following the path of least resistance and putting in stop-gap measures.

My own pet solution is on my blog: http://intellectual-detox.com/europes-crisis/ If anybody from the ECB reads Hacker News, I am available for hire as a consultant at the low, low fee of 1 ounce of gold an hour :-)

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by photon137 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:59AM (#4150735)
Your fundamental premise is wrong (as an aside, fiat currency does pay dividend - it's called "interest").

Central Banks are meant to be independent of the government. Their mandates are: (a) Acting as a lender of last resort to banks (b) Controlling inflation/deflation through monetary policy (c) (In some cases, like that of the Fed) ensure unemployment does not breach an "acceptable" level.

In almost no mandate, is it mentioned that the Central Bank has to monetize sovereign debt (T-Bills, Treasuries, Greek Debt, Spanish debt etc). The ECB isn't legally allowed to do so for very good reasons. Even the Fed doesn't do that - all its Treasury and MBS purchases are from the secondary market.

In fact, when the Spanish government directed $19B ECB funds to Bankia via injecting Spanish debt into the bank, it was a covert form of sovereign debt monetization - something the ECB objected to vehemently, but couldn't stop.

Even Germany could not pay its debt if investors demanded redemption at maturity

They always demand redemption at maturity - every single one - however, it occurs via a debt-rollover, ie issuing new debt to repay older debt.

What Europe needs is that the distortions in the balance-of-payments between countries should be fixed - the liabilities of the Eurozone aren't evenly distributed amongst countries with respect to their capability to service those liabilities (and that indeed is due to irresponsible fiscal behavior). Bu this can't be controlled by monetary policy alone - it requires closer fiscal integration (and agreeing upon things like retirement ages, pensions, insurance and a whole lot of other stuff).

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by cstross on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:42AM (#4150611)
So that's why Europe is stuck. It adopted a monetary system that works when the government controls the currency, and adopted it in a situation where governments cannot print money.

Minor nit: I believe they adopted the current monetary system in anticipation of future political union. Which was not unreasonable, extrapolating from the Franco-German steel and coal pact forward to the subsequent treaty system that created the EU -- but it got stalled when they diverted into expansion (from 12-17 states to 25+) instead of consolidation in the late 90s/early 00s.

And they'd still have been okay, in the short term, if the entire global economy hadn't caught a head-cold in 2007/08.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by bergie on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:31AM (#4151022)
Exactly, the original point of EU was to disincentivize France and Germany from going into yet another war on resources. Lots of other good (but sometimes confusing) structure has since been built on that foundation, but to me that original point is already enough for keeping the Union around.

Disclaimer: some of my current open source work is supported financially by the EU

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by lsc on Saturday June 23, 2012 @12:42PM (#4151189)
For context, I'm an American; I've read a bit of history, and I have a very American perspective on the last two world wars; Like most people my age, both of my grandfathers fought in world war two, and like most people, I place more emotional weight on stories told me by family members than accounts written by people on the other side, so my view of European politics is biased in a certain direction, and I don't have a lot of experience with Europe; I re-read this and what I write does sound a little bit racist to my eye; I hope that my question is taken more in the spirit of an ignorant person asking a question about another culture, rather than as a racist remark.

From here, it looks like Germany is now slowly getting, through economic means, what they were prevented from getting through military means during the last two world wars. I mean, sure, this is a hell of a lot nicer than fighting a war of that magnitude; I'm very thankful that I've never been in a situation where another human was seriously trying to kill me (and I've never been in a situation where I needed to kill another human, which, from what I hear, can often be more stressful and mentally damaging than being in a situation where someone else is trying to kill you, assuming you survive.) but... it just seems weird to me that the European community would let Germany reunite, then that they would almost voluntarily place them at the head of the European government.

How do Europeans feel about this? I mean, is my view of "give me the courts and the money supply, let the rabble have the rest" just not shared by most Europeans?

Is there a fear in Europe that Germany is taking over? I certainly haven't seen any of that in media coverage; but I would guess there would be some reluctance to express such feelings out of fear of appearing nationalistic or racist. (Of course, I'm aware that Europe is big; I imagine people in France and Italy, for example, have rather different feelings towards German dominance.)

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by bad_user on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:44PM (#4151343)
I see a lot of admiration towards Germany because they recovered after 2 world wars + the fall of the Berlin Wall. On the whole Germans are hard-working and ingenious people and you can't help admiring them for that.

Quite the contrary, people in the European Union hope that Germany will bail out everybody. In my opinion this is unlikely and if I were a German citizen I would not agree to have myself and my family indebted because of the EU ... however I hope that they'll understand that together we are stronger.

The EU is already the biggest economy in the world and if it survives this crisis it will also be the strongest for years to come.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by icebraining on Sunday June 24, 2012 @06:10AM (#4153040)
"They're doing economically what they failed to do by force" is an often repeated statement by many people here in Portugal, at least amongst left-leaning people (I live in one of the few municipalities where the Communist party wins consistently, and I interact a lot with educated but poorly paid people - actors, musicians, etc - so my views are probably biased).
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by satu on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:30PM (#4151314)
Europe, especially Margret Thatcher in Britain were very against German Unification... but in the end Unification was a victory for captitalism or communism... which was an important at the time.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by johnchristopher on Sunday June 24, 2012 @08:46AM (#4153219)
France (Mitterand) told Khöl (Germany) it wasn't the right time, maybe in ten years, to reunite or to tear the wall down. But it happened because there were already holes in Bulgaria the previous summer. Unification is more the symbol of the communism falldown than a capitalist victory.

Actually that was my political economy 101 course credo I took in uni.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Esteanil on Friday June 29, 2012 @06:52PM (#4179550)
I don't think europeans in general believe this, but opinion in Greece is (perhaps understandably) somewhat worse.

69% of surveyed Greeks strongly agree that Germany wants to build a Fourth Reich. Ref: http://www.vprc.gr/uplds/File/banners/Diagrammatic%20Present...

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tete on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:42PM (#4151611)
Okay, mine sounds a bit racist too. Well, actually I think it really does a lot. But I don't really care about what nation is what and stuff, because it all depends on the person doing shit and stuff. Also people are mostly thinking pretty global these days, especially here. So I guess we can assume that especially people on Hacker News don't really waste their energy on such stupid things.

It's basically what I get from the media and stuff. You know.... whatever country you live in. They want to tell you that you are great, should be proud and only talk about other's problems. So usually it's best to watch foreign medias to get a good (or pessimistic) view on your country.

Actually. Sorry, if that sounds plain, but from my perspective the bigger fear is that the US or China are taking over.

Maybe it helps to see Europe more like the states, just still more decentralized. I never really thought about this. In fact this comparison comes from a now US citizen.

Of course Germany and France (as well as UK, but they don't really care too much about the EU anyway) are like two strong US states. There may be so rivalry, but with EU and stuff they have the same goals.

It isn't like people in US think that some state is going to take over, right?

And one doesn't really have to fear much, if it isn't by means of war.

I am not from France, so no idea, how exactly they feel, but you have to keep in mind that the "constitution" of the EU basically grants everyone very equal voting rights. In fact smaller countries would have gotten even more votes if they hadn't killed it off.

There also is no dictator, not even someone in sight. From a democratic point of view Europe's distribution of power is far more even that for example what you see in the US, especially with the recent laws. There is no single person in Europe that has as much privileges as the US president for example.

Lets pretend Germany would really take the lead and stuff making Europe one big Germany this wouldn't really harm anyone.

So that's why people here are more afraid of a state like the US, which invests way more money (and I speak about percentage) into military than every other nation and which also has a lot of power with IWF, world bank (which aren't even really governmental/democratic) and where they have pretty strong nationalism, etc.

Now, nobody really fears the US and stuff. Actually the opposite is partly true. They see how the US struggles with debts, old infrastructure, loosing power to China, etc.

What I want to say with all of this is that things like that are more likely to go on in people's heads.

And I know this sounded kinda bad, but I actually heard the "US is struggling with own problems and soon isn't a world power anymore. That's why they do war and tell others about how to do their economy" quite often lately. Just a few days ago they even showed on the news how all the infrastructure built in sixties makes problems in the US. I guess it was kinda exaggerated, but it sounded like it is a poor country. What I want to say with this is that countries are really, really complex. You can't really say general things about them, cause every time you try to you actually say something that's wrong.

So, maybe there are lots of people fearing Germany and I just don't see them. The only thing I can say is that whenever they show the heads of Germany and France they at least pretend to not have any problems with each other and they do it really well.

Even if that wasn't a clear answer I hope that helped a bit. Basically the only thing that people worry about currently are Greece, Spain and Italy. Maybe it even is too much. They'd be doing well, if there was no worry. They "just" have the problem of everyone worrying, so they don't get any loans, people pull their money from these countries and this creates troubles and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

To come back to the topic a bit. It's pretty much what all these rating agencies do. They say: This country may have troubles to pay back their debts, which causes them to have high interests and so it actually becomes true.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser09 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @02:35AM (#4152760)
As long as the EU union is governed in a democratic way (as it is now) there is no serious fear that we (the rest of EU) would be the political slaves of Germany. Economically speaking, the eastern half of Europe (Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland + the 3 Baltic states) is nearly in economic slavery to the French, German, Austrian, Dutch and Swedish financial elites already. So what was in danger to be lost is already lost for the losers. On the other hand, the French and the Germans are negotiating rather well their interests (Greece !) and as long as this negotiation is not stuck, there will be no need for another war in Europe. I live in France now and there is no real fear here of anything (militarily speaking) cause they keep their Nukes warm and ready :D.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by lsc on Sunday June 24, 2012 @02:15PM (#4153828)
>I live in France now and there is no real fear here of anything (militarily speaking) cause they keep their Nukes warm and ready :D.

That made me chuckle. Yeah. France? My impression is that sometimes you are not so different from America as people think.

Oh yeah, speaking of nukes, last time I checked /everyone/ was stepping back from (civilian) nuclear power after the Japanese disaster. I know in the past France has been pretty dramatically pro-nuke; has this changed?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by WA on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:43AM (#4150153)
You ask how any of this debt can ever be repaid. But is this really what we want to achieve? Repay the debt? If money is, like in the reddit post, an IOU (or a certain unit of debt), then the idea is to balance out the amount of money (debt) with the growth of the economy. Too much and we got inflation. Too little and we cripple the economy.

I'm very curious why debt should be repaid at all, care to explain?

(Note: I think one's own debt is different than the debt in an economic scale)

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:27AM (#4150319)
Here is the catch in the 21st century - we are creating debt in exchange for things that can create goods without human intervention.

The entire monetary system is built off the idea of trading goods and services that are the products of human labor. Things like automated assembly lines are a precursor - when we had 3d printing, you remove all human factors in the creation of goods besides the raw resource acquisition, and sufficiently advanced printers can also decompose trash into reusable pieces so you don't even need raw materials any more besides power.

All our financial woes and economic malnourishment is the product of this system, beneath government welfare overspending the budget, it is why corporations post record profits while laying off thousands and why all that money goes to the top of the management. When the actual consumable and usable goods are not produced by people, the sale of individual units breaks down.

Look no further than media. Media is an upfront cost of creation, but reproduction is free. The current system is so broken because it tries to charge per unit as if unit production has an associated cost, where the cost is the funding, not the distribution. That problem only gets worse as we automate everything more and more (automated cars replace drivers, 3d printers replace small scale manufacturing...).

That leads to a big one. Automated mining and farming. Fully, with no human intervention, where you can set off a robot with some pre-programmed track of land to till or dig and it will extract all the resources from that area for you. Once that happens everything goes out the window, because a single point of sale unit of production (plus maintinance, which then gets ursurped by the singularity making machines improve themselves) where once one of these machines is available, resources are no longer scarce.

And then money breaks down. Because when human effort is no longer involved in the day to day operations of goods production, there is no continuous "cost" involved anymore, in the terms the Reddit thread describes, or how most people interpret goods and labor.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:11AM (#4150519)
Once you make movie A, the next million copies of movie A are essentially free. So we divide the cost of A by the number of units we expect to sell, rather than charging the full price of it to the first viewer, and giving it away to the others.

Crucially, and this is where the whole utopian post-scarcity dream falls apart, the cost of making movie B doesn't significantly depend on the cost of movie A. Because a movie isn't a "thing". Movie B is a different thing than movie A.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by hxa7241 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:20AM (#4150675)
Ideally, for informational-goods, we first find out (somewhat) what people want, take payment, make the product, then release it for free use and copying.

The economic problem here is fundamentally one of information and cooperation. As far as we know what we want we should share the cost of producing it (i.e. production should be of what is known to be wanted, and cooperation should be on shared goals). And where we do not know (e.g. the future) we should not prevent unpredicted gains from what has been produced (i.e. by charging for copies).

The practical problem is how to get information and how to promote cooperation -- this is where possible arrangements can vary. But the core theoretical structure is that our production should follow from information, and our consumption should not be hostage to lack of information -- this is what all arrangements should try to achieve.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:03AM (#4150565)
And then we apply the same principle to a song. Once you record the first song, the next million copies of it distributed via internet is basically free. Or is it. It would be nearly free if there were no fat cats in the middle.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:38AM (#4150605)
Distribution is free - but shouldn't the band be paid what they would have gotten with no record label in the way? That may mean songs on iTMS being 10p instead of 99p - don't creators of products you want deserve paying?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:49AM (#4150622)
I don't mind paying 10 cents if that is the fair cost. I only hate the very greedy middle men.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:41AM (#4150610)
Well said. I can't but wonder how the system evolved: The workers build, the scientists study & discover, the engineers design and improve, and everything they produce is sold for X amount of money while they are being paid Y amount of money. X - Y = P (profit) which goes to the capital owners who can spend it on the goods produced by the others without much participation at the production effort. Also I find it amazing that after all the advancements, discoveries and increases of productivity, the working class has to work 8 hours a day for longer number of years then the previous generations. The retirement age only increased in the last 50 years. Why do we need to work more if today we produce more, faster and cheaper than few years ago.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:22PM (#4151286)
The fruits of the labors of past generations are being filtered into 3 areas - the lowest common wage earner in the world that can do the grunt work the cheapest (Chinese, or Illegals, etc) the wealthy, who control all investment and funding, and governments that can freely tax and deficit all they want.

We don't "need" to work more. The USA produces a substantial excess of food, even past the excessive eating habits causing the obesity epidemic, and we sell electricity to Canada and Mexico since we are completely self sufficient there as well. Almost all of our electrical infrastructure is 40+ years old, grossly outdated, but the initial costs are effectively gone. The cost of power is just the million year old dead plants to make it.

The problem is we have no social construct to distribute these non-scares resources in any way but through exchanges that treat them as scarce. And we still have farmers toiling in fields and operators of power plants that need to be compensated for their labors.

The system really evolved to combat Communism. The powers that be ran with the propaganda wars of the 60's and turned the USA hyper-consumer with tons of debt to combat Russia's ideology. Everyone jumped on board because socialism and the "other" were irrationally dubbed wrong and thus we must do the opposite.

Also, food is becoming more expensive faster as the reality that only 1% of our population produces the resources we need to survive and prosper sets in. Make that 2%, 1% to make food and power and 1% to maintain infrastructure (poorly) and keep a functioning supply chain in place.

The rest of us? Effectively useless, and where we should be trying to invest the largest fraction of unbounded intellectual freedom to innovate and create in history to get us some freakin starships and immortality and super AI, we squander it with an outdated economic model that has millions sitting at desks twiddling thumbs or manning store counters because they have no choice if they want to eat and have a bed.

In the end, the best things we can aspire to are just not profitable enough for the system in place, so we wallow with a population grossly underutilized.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by aaronasterling on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:43PM (#4152003)
One doesn't have to buy into the system you describe. I basically sleep on the beach on Maui and mostly eat for free. In many ways, it's a good life :)
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:06PM (#4152468)
I want in on this free food! Living on the beach doesn't sound like it has good internet connectivity though.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by aaronasterling on Wednesday June 27, 2012 @12:13AM (#4165477)
Internet connectivity is over rated. I bet my wall paper is swanker than yours.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @05:27AM (#4152986)
While I think you're way out in the ozone with the idea that consumerism evolved as a reaction to Communism, the rest of your post is really well-stated. Our political system is geared toward promoting the idea of near-zero unemployment, where the goal we really should be working towards is near 100% unemployment.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by brandall10 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @11:43AM (#4153518)
"While I think you're way out in the ozone with the idea that consumerism evolved as a reaction to Communism".

A few months back I would have said the same thing. Then I watched this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self

It actually appeared to start post WWI, just the Cold War accelerated the effect.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @05:32PM (#4154299)
You don't think that what we call "consumerism" is just a Darwinian imperative? The idea that the guy with the most bling gets the most chicks is older than the ascent of Man, never mind Communism.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by brandall10 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @08:29PM (#4154634)
To consume as in gaining resources that actually increase survival and replication value? Sure.

The kind of mass consumption spawned from the US that has people sitting in front of their TVs 6 hours a day on average, obsessed with celebrity, eating fast food, getting fat, buying and hoarding tons of junk they hardly even use, being seriously in debt, working jobs they hate to keep the cycle going... stuff that is actually deleterious to physical and emotional health? No. And that documentary brings context to how this mess came about.

Just give it the first 15 minutes and find out how one man behind one public event changed the perception of women smoking forever:

"Bernays staged the 1929 Easter parade in New York City, showing models holding lit Lucky Strike cigarettes, or "Torches of Freedom". After the historical public event, women started lighting up more than ever before. It was through Bernays that women's smoking habits started to become socially acceptable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

This same man, the double nephew of Sigmund Freud, also coined the term PR and got his start as a propagandist for the Wilson administration during WWI.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:08PM (#4154817)
The system really evolved to combat Communism. The powers that be ran with the propaganda wars of the 60's and turned the USA hyper-consumer with tons of debt to combat Russia's ideology. Everyone jumped on board because socialism and the "other" were irrationally dubbed wrong and thus we must do the opposite.

That's a good cognate to David Graeber's description of neoliberalism: a program of governance designed to bring down Communism and hail the glorious victory of Capitalism, no matter the actual economic consequences of doing so.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by necubi on Saturday June 23, 2012 @02:51AM (#4150263)
It's not a matter of repaying the debt. It's a matter of being able to afford future debt. Sovereign debt is generally sold as bonds, which either pay interest or are sold at a discount. The question is: how much interest should they pay, or how large should the discount be?

Ultimately, bonds, like much else, are priced by the market. A $1000 bond is only worth $1000 if the issuer does not go bankrupt before the bond matures. Therefore, the bonds are discounted by some amount that correlates with how high investors think the risk is that it will be paid back in full.

A concrete example: Spanish 10-year notes. At the start of the year, investors demanded about 5% interest to account for the risk that the Spanish government would not be able to repay its debts. This means that for the Spanish government to raise €1000, it has to pay investors €50 every six months. However, this week that rose to 7%, effectively increasing the amount of debt the Spanish government must take on to raise the same amount of money.

This effect can create a death spiral (as we saw with Greece) where skittishness in the market raises the cost of borrowing, which unnerves investors even more.

So there's no way for investors to force the government to pay back all the debt. However, they can make it impossible to raise more money in the future.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by jonhohle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:45AM (#4150821)
It is different, but there are similarities: the more debt accrued, the more resources that go into servicing that debt; the more debt accrued, the less likely you are to be able to secure additional debt.

A US defective of $10T required 6% of the federal budget to service in fiscal year 2011. Currently, accrual of debt is outpacing both inflation, and increases in revenues.

This might still be fine _if_ the additional debt has a positive impact on GDP growth, but that's not entirely obvious. Japan has been in a similar situation for two decades. 25% of their national budget is used for servicing loans.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by InclinedPlane on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:47AM (#4150346)
Money is objectively valueless and only subjectively has value depending on circumstance. Inflating away debt or printing your way out of debt are not actually methods of repayment. If creditors thought that the US would just print more money to pay off its debts then they would ask for much, much higher interest rates or just not lend money. Printing your way out of debt is a sure fire way to end up in a hyper-inflationary spiral. Indeed, the fact that people trust that the US, for example, won't try to do that is why the US has a reasonable credit rating.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by nhaehnle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:11PM (#4151262)
Printing money != inflation - at least given a modern understanding of inflation, where inflation is defined as a change in the price level.

What is it that causes prices to change? Ultimately, prices in the real economy are changed by producers and vendors based on signals that they receive. The only signals that really matter in that regard are (a) cost of supply and labor, and (b) demand for their product.

So now we have all these trillions of US$ in as-good-as-money floating around, but they are essentially stationary wealth deposits, which is why we are not seeing inflation. What if this changes? This is where I believe most people become confused.

If the owners of those as-good-as-money treasuries suddenly decided that they'd rather own paper money as opposed to treasuries, then the US treasury would have to print the required paper money without there being any inflation at all. Instead of non-moving treasuries there would now be non-moving paper bills - there is no difference (except that treasuries pay a little bit of interest).

So clearly it cannot be the printing of paper that causes inflation.

However, if those people then decide to go on a spending spree, then it is quite possible that the additional demand drives prices up in the real economy. So it is the huge reservoir of wealth that, if it were suddenly released, could cause inflation.

If that's what you're worried about, then you have to think about ways to get rid of that wealth. Taxing the rich, perhaps?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by richcollins on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:35PM (#4151597)
If the fed printed 10x the current money supply in dollars and handed them out to everyone, prices wouldn't change?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by nhaehnle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:17PM (#4151966)
Clearly in this scenario, people would have more available money and therefore likely spend more. This additional spending could cause inflation.

This is very different from what InclinedPlane was talking about, namely paying back the debt by just printing money. And I'm not just talking theory here, but empirical observation, because this has already happened!

That's what QE is all about. The Fed creates a lot of money to buy treasuries, which is (from the perspective of the private sector) equivalent to printing money to pay back the debt. That hasn't caused inflation, and the reason for that is very simple. From the point of view of the private sector, exchanging treasuries for money is simply an asset swap. It minimally affects the yield curve, but that's it. The purchasing power of everybody stays the same, and therefore aggregate demand stays the same, hence no inflation.

Compare that to your scenario, in which the purchasing power of everybody is increased significantly, hence most likely aggregate demand would increase significantly, likely causing inflation. Very different scenarios with very different outcomes.

To sum it up: printing money is not inflationary. Spending can be inflationary, but then it doesn't matter who is doing the spending (imagine the richest 500 people in the US suddenly spending all their wealth - that would cause quite the spike in inflation!).

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by richcollins on Tuesday June 26, 2012 @03:38PM (#4163749)
OK so by your logic everyone in my scenario that would have received the cash could instead create pieces of paper that are promises to pay back the money and sell them to the fed. Would this still constitute an "asset swap" that doesn't create inflation.

The problem is that new money was created to buy relatively worthless assets, increasing the money supply and decreasing the relative wealth of dollar holders to those that the fed bought "assets" from. Once the banks spend this money, the latent inflation occurs and prices increase, making everyone that had dollars poorer relative to those that received the fed bailout.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:15PM (#4154824)
Which is why it may well be simpler and more effective to declare a debt-jubilee and shift our currency system away from debt-backing than to monetize public debts, which are nowadays often the bail-outs of private debts.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by joe_the_user on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:46AM (#4150157)
As long as you never look down, the system works.

Perhaps to nitpick - as long as enough people don't believe their neighbors believe that their neighbors are looking down, things are fine. If I personally look down, it is doesn't matter.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Evbn on Sunday June 24, 2012 @05:06PM (#4154259)
Yes. Money is a shared delusion.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by ExpiredLink on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:18AM (#4150530)
Exchange rates Euro to USD:

10 years ago: 1 EUR = 0,95 USD

today: 1 EUR = 1,3 USD

As European I really like the 'Euro crisis'. I'd be pleased to get more of it.

PS: What media has written about the financial crises since 2008 is mostly nonsense. In fact, we have seen a deep media crisis. Media is not able any more to give a remotely adequate picture of reality (not limited to financial aspects of course).

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by edwardy20 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @12:09PM (#4151108)
Considering the 10.3% unemployment rate in the EU right now, I doubt your fellow Europeans share the same viewpoint.

(http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....)

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gasull on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:54PM (#4151363)
Real US unemployment is way larger than the official numbers:

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-chart...

The numbers in the EU are also manipulated, but not by such a wide margin. When Europeans talk about unemployment, the statistic they're using is equivalent to the broadest US U6.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by janardanyri on Sunday June 24, 2012 @02:04PM (#4153803)
I'm severely distrustful of those stats and the zeal that surrounds them, generally long on ideology and short on rationale.

Let's poke at it a bit. Does "long-term discouraged worker" mean that if someone works for a few years in their 20s, experiences some obstacles in pursing their preferred career, and decides stay-at-home parenting is more to their liking anyway, are they now permanently "unemployed?" How do we recognize the difference between a detached person who's taken up sculpting and a desperate person living at wit's end?

Do you count as a "long-term discouraged academic" if you once made strides toward pursuing an academic career but strayed into industry? Do we have an economic crisis in the professional sports sector because millions of aspirants are being trained but over 90% of them ultimately can't find jobs playing baseball?

There may be some value in exploring how we define employment, but categorically calling those stats "real" and other stats "manipulated" trips my tinfoil detector, especially since I never see actual economists referencing this data.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by ExpiredLink on Saturday June 23, 2012 @02:02PM (#4151384)
> Unemployment rate

> 2001: US 4,8; Euro area 8,1

> 2011: US 8,9; Euro area 10,2

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by waterlesscloud on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:52PM (#4152538)
2008: 1 Eur = 1.60 USD

Now: 1 Eur = 1.25 USD

That looks a little different.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by jvm on Saturday June 23, 2012 @12:05PM (#4151097)
I hope you also enjoy the 25% unemployment in Spain...
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by icebraining on Sunday June 24, 2012 @06:26AM (#4153064)
There's also the 36,6% for younger people (<25) in Portugal.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by SuperChihuahua on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:52AM (#4150632)
But the problem is that we have postponed the crisis by increasing the debt
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Retric on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:00AM (#4150563)
Your making several mistakes with that post. #1 the 14 trillion debt is not a single loan it's millions of them. People pretend that bonds are the same thing as money all the time, but there not. If the government started paying back 0.1% of it's debt a month you would see huge cash flows, but though taxes the same money would be used to pay down different loans several times.

PS: There are valid reasons for treating bonds as cash equivalents, but M1, M2, M3, etc are simply different ways of looking at the money supply.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Atropos on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:29AM (#4150455)
Yeah Europe is stupid, if only our leaders were as wise as a random blogger! But please explain me this: EUR/USD started at 1,17 at inception and it is still at 1,26 now. US 10 year bond yield is 1,67420 and Germany's is 1,58100. US debt/gdp is around 101% and Germany's is 81,2%. Moreover the US has a huge trade deficit and Germany has a huge trade surplus.

To me the eurocrisis seems primarily a US/UK media thing...

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by adventureful on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:37AM (#4150466)
The EU crisis is absolutely not a US/UK media thing. Half the Eurozone is melting down, and requires trillions in bailouts from 'printed' Euros to bail them out. It's from decades of unpaid-for lifestyle choices, accumulated debt from Socialism (same thing America is choking on, we just spent more of our money on things like war, but that's a welfare program too for jobs and corporations).

The US is in much worse shape than most are willing to admit or accept, but the US has the global reserve currency it gets to abuse. That changes the game dramatically for the US. If the Eurozone had properly integrated its system, they might have stood a better chance, as it would have been easier to inflate, issue Euro bonds, and buy a lot more time as the US is doing. The EU is half a properly integrated system.

However, you refer to the US Dollar vs the Euro, but then you pick one specific country on the bond yield. Why not pick Switzerland? They have negative yields.

How about the bond yields for Spain, France, Portugal, Italy? France is going to explode next, so we can throw them in as well.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Atropos on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:17AM (#4150528)
At the moment only Greece (2,65% of eurozone gdp), Portugal (1,83%) and Ireland (1,82%) have received bailouts - which makes 6,3% not "half the Eurozone melting down". Spanish banks may get a €100b bankout aswell - big deal.

But I agree with you on the source of the problem - socialism or uneconomic regulation. That is visible in the doing business rankings of the world bank (http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings). Ireland(rank 10), France(29),Portugal(30) will hopefully be fine. Spain at 44 is troubling; I'm only really worried about Italy (87) and Greece (100).

However Portugal+Spain+Greece have voted in conservative governments, Italy has an interim economist technocrat government. There is the European Fiscal Compact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact). And Germany is pushing very hard for economic reforms in the bailout countries.

Overall it is just a problem with a few countries with bad governments/regulation, not a "Euro" problem and certainly not a European Union problem... And we seem to be taking more steps dealing with it then the US or UK with their problems!

I compared to the US$ because the import/export in USD or GBP is incredibly more significant than the few currencies the Euro has done badly against, like the Swiss Francs or Japanese Yen or Norwegian/Swedisch Krones etc...

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by mixmax on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:34AM (#4150702)
The problem isn't socialism, it's a divergence of productivity between the northern and southern regions of the euro area. When you combine this with a shared currency you're asking for trouble.

Note that the socialist nordic countries have stellar economies.

I've noticed a lot of Americans blame the euro crisis on socialism which,is interesting since it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. I'd be interested in hearing why this is. Is it the media, an American distrust of socialism or something else?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by jl6 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:13AM (#4150761)
People use the word Socialism when they mean something like "perversion of incentives". We perceive that Socialism incentivizes bad choices, like having more children than you could afford without government benefits, or making investments that appear less risky because you assume a government bailout will protect you.

As you point out, the nordic countries show that perverse incentives don't necessarily follow from Socialism. And indeed, America has its own non-Socialist perverse incentives such as encouraging pollution by not enforcing payment of the environmental externalities.

But all things considered globally, more socialism does tend to imply more perverse incentives.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by mixmax on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:56AM (#4150852)
Thanks for the good explanation.

However you end your comment by an unfounded claim that more socialism tends to imply perverse incentives. The same could be claimed of capitalism (or probably any other ..ism), see the banking sector and American healthcare for good examples.

In the rather socialist Denmark (where I happen to be from) when you break a leg you go to the doctor to get it fixed for free, and then you call your employer and tell him you won't be working for the next week, but you'll receive your paycheck nonetheless. When you get a child you take 9 months off work with full pay so that your offspring can get a good introduction to life. When you're out of a job the state will take care of you indefinitely.

Despite of this denmark has a consistently strong economy, is one of the richest countries in the world, and has for many years been in the top three of both the happiest country and the least corrupt country in the world.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:20PM (#4154830)
When you're out of a job the state will take care of you indefinitely.

Is that the Flexicurity system? How does that work?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by MaysonL on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:36PM (#4152221)
Of course less socialism also leads to perverse incentives at times, like avoiding starting a company because of fear of not being able to get health insurance.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by potatolicious on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:05AM (#4150745)
I've noticed that socialism is definitely a pejorative term in the US - which dismays me as a socialist-leaning Canadian. It's like economic Godwin - call someone a socialist and effective discourse just kind of grinds to a halt.

It's the modern "communism", without invoking the spirit of McCarthy.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gnaritas on Saturday June 23, 2012 @10:18AM (#4150900)
It's a pejorative among conservatives, not among liberals.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by excuse-me on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:27AM (#4151015)
Ironically that liberal is also pejorative in the USA
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gnaritas on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:30PM (#4151581)
Also only among conservatives; don't paint everyone with that brush. They are only half the USA.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by Atropos on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:58AM (#4150733)
I only used the word "socialism" because the other commenter used it - in the original meaning of the word it doesn't exist anywhere in Europe. What I meant is simply bad regulation. You are correct that some of the nordish countries have a more ,,left'' reputation and have things like high taxes, alot of redistribution etc... But if you look at the "Heritage Ranking of Economic Freedom" (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking), you see: - Denmark (Rank 11), Finland (17), Sweden (21) - Spain(36), Portugal(68), Italy(92), Greece(119)
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by soc88 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:18AM (#4150770)
This also amazes me too. The US has neither a working, efficient health care nor education system, but blames others for "socialism"?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by KaoruAoiShiho on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:10AM (#4150984)
Not sure about the health care system, but the non-socialist portion of the US education system is the best in the world, and only the socialist portion of it is terrible. I find those to be reasonable grounds to dislike socialism.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:22PM (#4154833)
Major public universities in the United States, known world-over for their excellence:

* University of California, Berkeley

* University of Washington, Seattle

* University of Massachusetts, Amherst

* Texas A&M

* University of Wisconsin, Madison

Shall I go on?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by kbolino on Monday June 25, 2012 @10:23AM (#4156613)
To call any of those "socialist", when the paid-by-the-student cost has skyrocketed and the paid-by-the-government cost has plummeted, is a bit of a stretch.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Monday June 25, 2012 @12:57PM (#4157366)
Fair point, but they were world-class universities when the government subsidized them, too. There's no inverse correlation between government support of a university and academic quality, being my point.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by kbolino on Monday June 25, 2012 @05:12PM (#4158774)
Agreed, and I think KaoruAoiShiho's original "socialist" comment was about K-12 anyway.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by excuse-me on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:26AM (#4151014)
How is California's debt looking these days?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by keithpeter on Sunday June 24, 2012 @06:42AM (#4153083)
"The fundamental problem is that the monetary systems of the modern world are all designed on the Wile E. Coyote principle. As long as you never look down, the system works."

I have used this analogy several times recently. Good to see it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6fhxL_Njyg

Paul Murphy and the Destroyers have another answer to the question, but localised to the original crash.

What I want to know is: does anyone rate the rating agencies? We now have a situation where some geezers in NY can issue a 'rating' on a whole country and cause that country extreme difficulty.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by rfugger on Saturday June 23, 2012 @02:07AM (#4150186)
There's always enough money to pay off all the debt, it just may not always have enough velocity.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by sageikosa on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:57AM (#4150640)
Best answer yet. A recirculating water fountain can stream far more water per day through its system than it holds or receives in replenishment.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tocomment on Saturday June 23, 2012 @09:27AM (#4150789)
Why is europes situation different than individual states in the us? They all issue debt in a currency they can't create and they generally do fine.

Why can't we think of eu members like states of a larger country?

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by jvm on Saturday June 23, 2012 @12:07PM (#4151105)
The US states, largely, have very little debt. Many of them have legally banned themselves from deficit spending.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by arethuza on Sunday June 24, 2012 @07:15AM (#4153124)
But they do have huge pension liabilities which look like they will be pretty difficult to serve:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/usa-states-debt-id...

Also, aren't a lot of individual US cities in trouble?

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16135233

Michael Lewis (author of The Big Short) in his latest book "Boomerang" takes a tour of the places involved in the ongoing financial crisis: Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Germany (as a "victim") and, last but not least, California and the city of Vallejo.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by killerpopiller on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:20AM (#4150307)
imho you forgot to mention the key difference between US and Europe. The US can print money because there is still demand in buying $. This demand is an artificial one caused by the petro-$, the binding of every oil purchase to $. So everybody involved in oil trading has to purchase $ to purchase oil!

Iraq and Iran threatend to sell oil in €, for several reasons, they couldn't and didn't deliver, unfortunatly.

The BRICs countries establishing their own trading in other currencies than $. So this dominating role of the US will end long term.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:58AM (#4150369)
So everybody involved in oil trading has to purchase $ to purchase oil!

I don't really understand why this is considered so important. Big deal, so oil is priced in dollars. Say I have some Euros and want to buy €100 worth of oil. I trade the €100 for $X, buy $X worth of oil 100 microseconds later, and now I have the €100 worth of oil I wanted. What difference did it make to me if $X was $0.01 or $10,000? I'm trying to buy oil, not currency.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by SuperChihuahua on Saturday June 23, 2012 @04:34AM (#4150409)
But you need currency to buy oil. And the result is an "artificial" stronger dollar and a weaker euro - a different exchange rate - compared with if you could purchase oil in euro
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:24PM (#4151972)
So the real problem is that currency has a value all its own, entirely apart from what goods and services it can buy. As a result, there's no way to blindly equate X in one currency with Y in another, because the very act of exchanging one for the other affects their relative values. Transactions that should be purely economic in nature have unavoidable political undertones.

I see.

Wow, that's broken.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by excuse-me on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:31AM (#4151021)
But if you want oil and you have the machine that prints $ you don't have to actually pay for the oil - you are buying it with treasury debt.

And since the producer can only sell oil in $ they have no choice but to lend to you - so oil in $ and owning the $ machine gives you a certain advantage over having to actually export somethign to balance our payments

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by harryh on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:46AM (#4150345)
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by nhaehnle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:27PM (#4151859)
That link somewhat misleadingly downplays the role of other dollar-denominated assets held by non-US. Now it is true that the fact that trillions of USDs are held in treasuries by other countries (China, Japan, etc.) cannot significantly affect the interest paid on those treasuries, because this interest rate is largely a result of Fed monetary policy.

On the other hand, it is very obvious that the fact that the Chinese government is buying up treasuries is what prevents the USD from dropping versus the RMB. So China is effectively giving the US a whole bunch of real goods for free, by buying up those treasuries. This may be irrelevant from the financial perspective, but in real terms, this is a huge benefit for the US.

That said, the fact that China buys lots of USD doesn't have anything to do with the whole petro-dollar thing. It just so happens that their industry is geared towards exporting to the US, and it is not possible for them to restructure their industry quickly. So in a sense, the article is still correct on the whole petro-dollar front, but misleading in others.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:42AM (#4150340)
Iraq only couldn't because they got invaded! There is a strong case that this was the real reason for Gulf War II.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by alan_cx on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:49AM (#4150481)
The first one actually.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:07AM (#4150511)
Yep you are correct.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by bgilroy26 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:33AM (#4150138)
I thought US debt was backed by the military? The debt represents faith in the United States and the world-system as a whole.

I think the only way this could collapse Wile E. Coyote style was if the trade routes in the Atlantic and the Pacific developed a huge problem with highwaymen and the US military couldn't lock it down.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @04:14AM (#4150387)
Well yes and no. The way you establish a currency is as follows, traditionally: you assume political control over some area of land, and all political power is backed ultimately by military power (tho' cushioned by laws, courts, police, etc internally). Then you declare that everyone living on this land must pay taxes, and they must pay these taxes in... Seashells, or gold doubloons, or tons of flax, or whatever. Hey presto, you have a currency! Later on for convenience sake you can keep all your seashells in a vault and use paper tokens instead.

The thing is tho', you want other countries to accept seashells too, places where you have no political or military control. The way this happens is that those seashells can be exchanged for goods and services provided by your citizens, who need seashells anyway to pay their taxes, so might as well use them for everything else too. Therefore the value of a seashell on the currency market (i.e. outside your borders) is backed by the industrial power of your country.

So to sum up, a military backs a currency only in the sense that the military holds borders in which industry can operate safely - and not in the sense of military as ultimate debt collectors. At least, the Greeks better hope not.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by calibraxis on Saturday June 23, 2012 @04:27AM (#4150406)
Yeah, no country's going to compel the US to pay back its debt, given that the US probably spends about as much on the military as the rest of the world combined. Instead, they simply roll over the debt by buying more US Treasury IOUs. It looks far more like tribute to the military superpower, than the usual creditor-debtor relationship where the creditor dominates the debtor.

Of course, weak countries must pay their debts (even when a military dictatorship racks up odious debt), which is a lever to force them to ruin their societies through austerity programs.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by adventureful on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:00AM (#4150499)
It would take extreme desperation for someone like Japan to call in their held paper. That's an entirely plausible scenario though, given their debt loads.

However, the US could push a button and 'print' $2 trillion tomorrow morning in a monster QE3, and then hand Japan and China each a trillion dollars and nearly pay them off completely. All it would do is probably push the dollar index back down into the mid 70's, where it was 9 to 12 months ago. The bigger problem would actually be confidence, such a move would freak everybody out. Instead the Fed prefers to gradually inflate the value of Chinese and Japanese debt holdings away (which is also why China has taken such a liking to gold).

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by bjornsing on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:26AM (#4153374)
The comparison between US and European credit worthiness is interesting. I think there might be an even simpler and more logical way to explain it: European countries can only tax future income while the US government can tax income in the past, at least that of those who cannot protect themselves against inflation.

Since the credit worthiness of a country ultimately depends on its ability to tax its citizens you will see a very different market response to the same debt level.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by ivankirigin on Saturday June 23, 2012 @02:18PM (#4151425)
The debt is backed by real assets not represented in dollars. Those aren't just inherently valuable like gold, but the engines to create more value.

There also isn't a fixed pie. A software company can turn $1M in salaries into $10M in revenue. This isn't new debt, but new wealth.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:26PM (#4154838)
Wealth can be created by anyone. Money can only be created by an authority figure, a Royal Mint or Central Bank.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by mtgx on Saturday June 23, 2012 @04:05AM (#4150378)
But what happens if US has to print a lot of money all of the sudden? Won't they just wipe out a lot of value from most people's incomes, while also creating higher prices for products?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by nhaehnle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:15PM (#4151268)
You have to explain why printing a lot of money would cause inflation in the first place.

What GP is saying is that if the owners of treasuries were unhappy with those treasuries and preferred holding on to cash, the government could just create that cash and nothing would change.

This would not change prices, since if the owners of treasuries just swapped those treasuries for cash, businesses would not see their demand increase, and nobody would have any reason to raise the prices they ask.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by mtgx on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:31PM (#4151316)
What do you mean nothing would change? If the Federal Reserve all of the sudden prints 10% of the dollars in existence to pay the US's debt, won't that devalue everyone else's salaries and such by around 10%?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by nhaehnle on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:19PM (#4151840)
That depends on what happens with those dollars. I guess you can best sum it up like this:

Printing money is not inflationary, but spending money can be.

Those 14 trillion USD in government debt is held in bonds precisely because those wealthy enough to own them do not want to spend them. So if, all of a sudden, the Fed prints a lot of dollar bills to pay the US debt, what this really means at an operational level is that they print those dollar bills to buy treasuries on the open market and/or buy directly from the government.

This simply means that the demand for treasuries increases, which drives up the price of treasuries, which is equivalent to driving down the interest rate on treasuries.

To sum it up: if the Fed does what you say, the interest rates will drop further closer to zero, but that's pretty much all that will happen.

Now if you think that decreasing interest rates can have secondary effects, then we can talk about those. But given that the interest rate is almost 0% already anyway, it seems unlikely that a small downward change would have a big economic impact.

Perhaps you're confusing paying back the debt with actual spending. Paying back the debt is simply an asset/liability swap that doesn't change anybody's wealth, and therefore cannot have inflationary effects. Actual spending is something else, and can be inflationary - though in the current economic climate, you could probably increase government spending significantly (by a trillion or so per year) without creating inflationary trouble.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by MaysonL on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:41PM (#4152228)
You've perhaps heard the term "quantitative easing" thrown around in the news media lately?

QE is the Fed printing money; lots and lots of money. Around 2 trillion so far. And very little has changed.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by excuse-me on Saturday June 23, 2012 @02:55PM (#4151500)
No it would devalue them by much more

Everyone would stop accepting $ since there was a risk that the government would print 20% next month. The value of the US $ would crash as other countries suddenly stopped accepting it or wanted much more of it to cover the risk - so the price of imports would rise.

The price of oil would soar (in $) or only be available from some markets if you paid in euro/gold.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by adventureful on Saturday June 23, 2012 @05:56AM (#4150492)
The plan is to not print a lot of money all of a sudden. The ideal is to inflate gradually, as the Fed has been doing for decades (destroying 97% of the dollar in the process).

As twisted as it is, the US has an interest in seeing the Euro destroyed. It would leave the dollar as the only standing potential global currency (until perhaps China unlocks their currency, but who knows when that would be). Then the US could abuse the dollar at a much greater scale, with fewer competing major currencies for money to escape to.