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Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @03:27AM (#4150319)
Here is the catch in the 21st century - we are creating debt in exchange for things that can create goods without human intervention.

The entire monetary system is built off the idea of trading goods and services that are the products of human labor. Things like automated assembly lines are a precursor - when we had 3d printing, you remove all human factors in the creation of goods besides the raw resource acquisition, and sufficiently advanced printers can also decompose trash into reusable pieces so you don't even need raw materials any more besides power.

All our financial woes and economic malnourishment is the product of this system, beneath government welfare overspending the budget, it is why corporations post record profits while laying off thousands and why all that money goes to the top of the management. When the actual consumable and usable goods are not produced by people, the sale of individual units breaks down.

Look no further than media. Media is an upfront cost of creation, but reproduction is free. The current system is so broken because it tries to charge per unit as if unit production has an associated cost, where the cost is the funding, not the distribution. That problem only gets worse as we automate everything more and more (automated cars replace drivers, 3d printers replace small scale manufacturing...).

That leads to a big one. Automated mining and farming. Fully, with no human intervention, where you can set off a robot with some pre-programmed track of land to till or dig and it will extract all the resources from that area for you. Once that happens everything goes out the window, because a single point of sale unit of production (plus maintinance, which then gets ursurped by the singularity making machines improve themselves) where once one of these machines is available, resources are no longer scarce.

And then money breaks down. Because when human effort is no longer involved in the day to day operations of goods production, there is no continuous "cost" involved anymore, in the terms the Reddit thread describes, or how most people interpret goods and labor.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:11AM (#4150519)
Once you make movie A, the next million copies of movie A are essentially free. So we divide the cost of A by the number of units we expect to sell, rather than charging the full price of it to the first viewer, and giving it away to the others.

Crucially, and this is where the whole utopian post-scarcity dream falls apart, the cost of making movie B doesn't significantly depend on the cost of movie A. Because a movie isn't a "thing". Movie B is a different thing than movie A.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by hxa7241 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @08:20AM (#4150675)
Ideally, for informational-goods, we first find out (somewhat) what people want, take payment, make the product, then release it for free use and copying.

The economic problem here is fundamentally one of information and cooperation. As far as we know what we want we should share the cost of producing it (i.e. production should be of what is known to be wanted, and cooperation should be on shared goals). And where we do not know (e.g. the future) we should not prevent unpredicted gains from what has been produced (i.e. by charging for copies).

The practical problem is how to get information and how to promote cooperation -- this is where possible arrangements can vary. But the core theoretical structure is that our production should follow from information, and our consumption should not be hostage to lack of information -- this is what all arrangements should try to achieve.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:03AM (#4150565)
And then we apply the same principle to a song. Once you record the first song, the next million copies of it distributed via internet is basically free. Or is it. It would be nearly free if there were no fat cats in the middle.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by gaius on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:38AM (#4150605)
Distribution is free - but shouldn't the band be paid what they would have gotten with no record label in the way? That may mean songs on iTMS being 10p instead of 99p - don't creators of products you want deserve paying?
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:49AM (#4150622)
I don't mind paying 10 cents if that is the fair cost. I only hate the very greedy middle men.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by tempuser008 on Saturday June 23, 2012 @07:41AM (#4150610)
Well said. I can't but wonder how the system evolved: The workers build, the scientists study & discover, the engineers design and improve, and everything they produce is sold for X amount of money while they are being paid Y amount of money. X - Y = P (profit) which goes to the capital owners who can spend it on the goods produced by the others without much participation at the production effort. Also I find it amazing that after all the advancements, discoveries and increases of productivity, the working class has to work 8 hours a day for longer number of years then the previous generations. The retirement age only increased in the last 50 years. Why do we need to work more if today we produce more, faster and cheaper than few years ago.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @01:22PM (#4151286)
The fruits of the labors of past generations are being filtered into 3 areas - the lowest common wage earner in the world that can do the grunt work the cheapest (Chinese, or Illegals, etc) the wealthy, who control all investment and funding, and governments that can freely tax and deficit all they want.

We don't "need" to work more. The USA produces a substantial excess of food, even past the excessive eating habits causing the obesity epidemic, and we sell electricity to Canada and Mexico since we are completely self sufficient there as well. Almost all of our electrical infrastructure is 40+ years old, grossly outdated, but the initial costs are effectively gone. The cost of power is just the million year old dead plants to make it.

The problem is we have no social construct to distribute these non-scares resources in any way but through exchanges that treat them as scarce. And we still have farmers toiling in fields and operators of power plants that need to be compensated for their labors.

The system really evolved to combat Communism. The powers that be ran with the propaganda wars of the 60's and turned the USA hyper-consumer with tons of debt to combat Russia's ideology. Everyone jumped on board because socialism and the "other" were irrationally dubbed wrong and thus we must do the opposite.

Also, food is becoming more expensive faster as the reality that only 1% of our population produces the resources we need to survive and prosper sets in. Make that 2%, 1% to make food and power and 1% to maintain infrastructure (poorly) and keep a functioning supply chain in place.

The rest of us? Effectively useless, and where we should be trying to invest the largest fraction of unbounded intellectual freedom to innovate and create in history to get us some freakin starships and immortality and super AI, we squander it with an outdated economic model that has millions sitting at desks twiddling thumbs or manning store counters because they have no choice if they want to eat and have a bed.

In the end, the best things we can aspire to are just not profitable enough for the system in place, so we wallow with a population grossly underutilized.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by aaronasterling on Saturday June 23, 2012 @06:43PM (#4152003)
One doesn't have to buy into the system you describe. I basically sleep on the beach on Maui and mostly eat for free. In many ways, it's a good life :)
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by zanny on Saturday June 23, 2012 @11:06PM (#4152468)
I want in on this free food! Living on the beach doesn't sound like it has good internet connectivity though.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by aaronasterling on Wednesday June 27, 2012 @12:13AM (#4165477)
Internet connectivity is over rated. I bet my wall paper is swanker than yours.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @05:27AM (#4152986)
While I think you're way out in the ozone with the idea that consumerism evolved as a reaction to Communism, the rest of your post is really well-stated. Our political system is geared toward promoting the idea of near-zero unemployment, where the goal we really should be working towards is near 100% unemployment.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by brandall10 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @11:43AM (#4153518)
"While I think you're way out in the ozone with the idea that consumerism evolved as a reaction to Communism".

A few months back I would have said the same thing. Then I watched this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self

It actually appeared to start post WWI, just the Cold War accelerated the effect.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @05:32PM (#4154299)
You don't think that what we call "consumerism" is just a Darwinian imperative? The idea that the guy with the most bling gets the most chicks is older than the ascent of Man, never mind Communism.
Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by brandall10 on Sunday June 24, 2012 @08:29PM (#4154634)
To consume as in gaining resources that actually increase survival and replication value? Sure.

The kind of mass consumption spawned from the US that has people sitting in front of their TVs 6 hours a day on average, obsessed with celebrity, eating fast food, getting fat, buying and hoarding tons of junk they hardly even use, being seriously in debt, working jobs they hate to keep the cycle going... stuff that is actually deleterious to physical and emotional health? No. And that documentary brings context to how this mess came about.

Just give it the first 15 minutes and find out how one man behind one public event changed the perception of women smoking forever:

"Bernays staged the 1929 Easter parade in New York City, showing models holding lit Lucky Strike cigarettes, or "Torches of Freedom". After the historical public event, women started lighting up more than ever before. It was through Bernays that women's smoking habits started to become socially acceptable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

This same man, the double nephew of Sigmund Freud, also coined the term PR and got his start as a propagandist for the Wilson administration during WWI.

Re:Where has all the money in the world gone? by eli_gottlieb on Sunday June 24, 2012 @10:08PM (#4154817)
The system really evolved to combat Communism. The powers that be ran with the propaganda wars of the 60's and turned the USA hyper-consumer with tons of debt to combat Russia's ideology. Everyone jumped on board because socialism and the "other" were irrationally dubbed wrong and thus we must do the opposite.

That's a good cognate to David Graeber's description of neoliberalism: a program of governance designed to bring down Communism and hail the glorious victory of Capitalism, no matter the actual economic consequences of doing so.