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Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by fergbrain on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:46PM (#41283427)
I wonder if this ruling could also force the courts to start addressing unconstitutional civil forfeiture
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by GavinMcG on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:23PM (#41283717)
The Supreme Court has said it isn’t unconstitutional as a general matter, so a lower court’s ruling won’t force that to change. And because the practice is a holdover from English law and isn’t understood (as a historical matter) to be something the constitution was meant to alter, there isn’t much basis for thinking the Supreme Court would reverse its earlier decisions.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by alistairSH on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:30PM (#41283770)
How do they align that reasoning with the 4th? Particularly the conservative wing of the bench, as they seem most likely to be literalists (when it suits, at least).
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by SllX on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:24PM (#41284190)
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/05/09/supreme-court-issues-fl...

Reason has a good analysis. This recent case was about preliminary hearings in civil asset forfeiture cases in which it was ruled 6-3 that preliminary hearings weren’t required in such cases, but if you read into Gorsuch’s concurring opinion, it looks a lot like he believes civil asset forfeiture is over applied and shouldn’t be used outside of exigent circumstances like those covered under admiralty, customs and revenue law where a ship might leave American jurisdiction before a proper hearing could be held on the asset.

So… with the right case brought before them, the current SCOTUS bench might be ready to gut civil asset forfeiture like a trout.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by tocs3 on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:17PM (#41284140)
I don;t think they are trying very hard. They make the claim that the property is involved in a crime (not the owner) and the property does not have rights.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_forfeiture

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by rolph on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:02PM (#41284521)
property is also not a person.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by einpoklum on Monday August 19, 2024 @03:22PM (#41293865)
And that's why the police always seizes the property of banks and investment firms when there is suspicion of their involvement in financial crimes.

...

Oh, wait, did I say "police seizes"?

I meant of course "government replenishes guarantees and underwrites".

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by GavinMcG on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:23PM (#41284178)
The conservatives tend to be literalists when interpreting statutes and regulations. There are judicial philosophy reasons for that, but also, statutes and regulations can be changed in response to court rulings. That said, the conservatives tend to be literalists from the perspective of the legislature or regulator at the time the law was enacted, though all the justices (conservative and liberal) recognize that it’s a fiction to say Congress has a single point of view.

When it comes to interpreting the constitution, conservatives likewise tend to be focused on the point of view at enactment. But it’s even more of a fiction to say that the states had a single point of view, and in any case, the text of the constitution often isn’t precise in the way contemporary statutes are. So the conservatives are guided more strongly by the historical evidence about what the sovereign states would have “understood” themselves to be giving up, in replacing the Articles of Confederation with a central federal government.

Given that, they interpret the Fourth Amendment by reference to the historical evidence of what phenomena it was responding to. And as a historical matter, the aim of the amendment was to require warrants, not to narrow the scope of what could be searched or seized. So where there’s probable cause that a crime has been committed, a warrant may issue, and it can be directed at the property that “committed” the crime, since that was a known practice in English law at the time.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by alistairSH on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:05PM (#41284558)
Are these warrants issued retroactively? Some of the most egregious cases of civil forfeiture seem to be literal cash grabs on the side of the road.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by FireBeyond on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:10PM (#41284599)
> That said, the conservatives tend to be literalists from the perspective of the legislature or regulator at the time the law was enacted

I find it ironic that they view the Constitution as "at the time the law was enacted" and continue to rule on literalism that way, even though those same people explicitly specified that laws and the Constitution should be reviewed, revised, and otherwise be interpreted as appropriate for that time, not the time of writing.

There's never really an explanation as to why "we have to treat these things like infallible perfect works" when they're not, and even their authors told us they're not.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by ffgjgf1 on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:22PM (#41284704)
> There's never really an explanation as to why "we have to treat these things like infallible perfect works" when they're not, and even their authors told us they're not.

They are not, though. The constitution can be changed and has been changed many times in the past. I assume they think (or justify their decisions by saying that at least) that it’s not their job to pass legislation or enact constitutional amendments without any input from the states/congress which seems like a reasonable viewpoint.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by oatmeal1 on Sunday August 18, 2024 @07:02PM (#41286257)
> "we have to treat these things like infallible perfect works"

They don't treat the law as perfect, they just believe they don't have the leeway to reinterpret the law as they want in contradiction of the text. The law doesn't work if justices can read between the lines to get what they want.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by FireBeyond on Sunday August 18, 2024 @07:14PM (#41286313)
Without arguing for or against firearms control, would you argue that the definition of a "well-regulated militia" has changed in the last 240 years?

SCOTUS certainly hasn't interpreted it "as written", but has been happy to "evolve" it.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by rolph on Sunday August 18, 2024 @07:33PM (#41286444)
the whole point of the people bearing arms, is to enable the people to regulate the activities of a militia directed by a tyrant, example being rebellion against the occupying redcoats, the commision of the war of independance, and succesion of the republic.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by rootusrootus on Sunday August 18, 2024 @08:25PM (#41286697)
> would you argue that the definition of a "well-regulated militia" has changed in the last 240 years

That's a good question. And the answer is yes.

At the time it was written, that phrase would roughly mean well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined. Not regulated in the way we use the term today, to refer to something governed by regulations.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by mistercheph on Sunday August 18, 2024 @09:03PM (#41286909)
The prefatory clause of the 2nd amendment does not require a well-regulated militia to be in existence in order for the right to be protected, it expresses the motivation and then declares the right uninfringeable:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Maybe you'd be happier if it said:

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms while they are members of a well-regulated militia shall not be infringed."

I am sympathetic to both sides of the jurispredential pragmatism/literalism question, but don't get your eggs twisted about what the 2nd amendment says, as only the most alien of consciousnesses could find ambiguity in its terse declaration.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by FireBeyond on Sunday August 18, 2024 @09:51PM (#41287117)
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of the free State.

So maybe we need the well regulated Militia, because that seems absent, though the Constitution says it is necessary.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by mr_toad on Sunday August 18, 2024 @11:53PM (#41287658)
The US already has an organised militia, it’s called (in honour of a Frenchman) the National Guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by CPLX on Sunday August 18, 2024 @11:33PM (#41287577)
> That said, the conservatives tend to be literalists from the perspective of the legislature or regulator at the time the law was enacted

There’s absolutely no objective basis for this statement whatsoever.

The Supreme Court is a political body and always has been. The current rhetorical fiction that it’s some other thing is really a relic of the post-war era that became cemented because it has been a helpful fiction for both sides at various points.

The sooner we retire the nonsense idea that the court is doing anything other than make politically calculated decisions the better off we will all be.

Supreme Court justices make decisions the same way every other political actor in our system does. Because they want to, because they can get away with it, and because their constituencies and supporters demand and incentivize it.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by edub on Sunday August 18, 2024 @08:24PM (#41286692)
This seems like a strong candidate for a Constitutional amendment. Twelve amendments were ratified in the 20th century—about once a decade since the end of the Civil War. However, if you exclude the 27th Amendment[1], we haven't ratified an amendment in 53 years. My favorite type of amendment is one that extends rights to people, and in this case, also to their property.

[1] The 27th Amendment took a different path compared to the other 16 amendments ratified since the Bill of Rights. It was originally proposed as part of the first 12 amendments but took 202 years to be ratified. This was largely due to the efforts of a University of Texas student in the 1980s, who, motivated by a C grade on a paper, embarked on a mission to see it finally adopted.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by hinkley on Monday August 19, 2024 @02:13AM (#41288272)
But we didn’t treat it this way until Ron and Nancy’s War on Drugs.

So while this might be a very old bug in the Rule of Law, it got much worse during the 20th Century.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by qingcharles on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:36PM (#41283815)
I spent hundreds of hours hanging out in forfeiture court, it's wild. The court I was in eventually got a new judge and she took the two DAs aside and said to them "This bullshit you have going here, the 90% of cases you win because people don't even know how to fill out the paperwork. That ends today. That will not fly in my courtroom."

I remember that same day a dad came in. The State had his new $60K SUV they were trying to sell. His son had swiped the keys, taken it, got caught drunk-driving. The DAs were like "well, tough shit, it's the law" and that judge said "Did this man know his son took the car? Does he have valid insurance? Give this man his damned car back. And I want you to pay all his towing and storage fees too." "His towing fee too?" "Yes" "We don't even know how to refund that, the city has that money." "Well, you have an hour to find out. See you in an hour." LOL

If you are ever caught up in a civil forfeiture, make sure to stay on top of the paperwork. Most people lose their stuff by not doing the very simple paperwork. If you get to the first court hearing the State often gives up if it's not much value.

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by LorenPechtel on Monday August 19, 2024 @11:51AM (#41292074)
Was she promptly removed from the courtroom? We certainly can't have a judge that won't kowtow to system on the bench!!
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by threatofrain on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:47PM (#41283440)
I wonder if judicial solutions can ever be adequate as police can simply say that an investigation is ongoing for years. And determining whether ongoing possession of seized property is legitimate involves disclosing investigation details.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by debacle on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:11PM (#41283619)
The problem is it eventually becomes government civil lawfare against citizens. Taxpayer foot the bill to screw other taxpayers.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by frankharv on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:44PM (#41283886)
I saw a local piece about Power Company taking land from black owned Funeral Home for onshore windfarm transmission towers.

I thought to myself why would one business be able to seize anothers property?

How does a private company deserve Eminent Domain powers?

Is a Funeral Home not a Public Good too?

Why would we allow emminent domain for a monolopy company.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/virginia...

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by opo on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:58PM (#41284947)
The most famous example of this kind of use of eminent domain was the Kelo case which went to the Supreme Court. By 5-4 the court rules it was permissible to use eminent domain to get the land to build a campus for Pfizer. (The majority was Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer.)

As Justice Sandra Day O’Connor wrote “The specter of condemnation hangs over all property. Nothing is to prevent the State from replacing any Motel 6 with a Ritz-Carlton, any home with a shopping mall, or any farm with a factory.”

After all of this, the land didn't get built into a corporate campus:

>...For nearly 20 years since the ruling, the entire Fort Trumbull neighborhood remained a vacant lot after being bulldozed by the city; a neighborhood once teeming with families who resided there for generations was home only to weeds and feral cats. The economic development the city promised the U.S. Supreme Court would materialize—if only the government could get its hands on the land—never materialized, even after spending more than $80 million in taxpayer money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London https://ij.org/case/kelo/

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by debacle on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:57PM (#41283978)
Corruption is pretty much always the answer.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by frankharv on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:04PM (#41284022)
Indeed. Between FERC and State bodies you don't stand a chance to win.

They were offering the Funeral Home $20K for 'air rights'. No poles. Seems cheap if you feel you will need to shutdown the business.

https://landownerattorneys.com/can-private-companies-use-emi...

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by duskwuff on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:56PM (#41284467)
Claiming that the owners will "need to shutdown the business" because there are now power lines running above it seems a bit hyperbolic.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by tshaddox on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:19PM (#41283685)
How is that different than, say, indefinite detention? It’s obviously not implemented perfectly, but habeas corpus is uncontroversial at least in principle. I don’t see anything mechanistically unique about property seizure that would make this tricky to solve.
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by throwup238 on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:41PM (#41283865)
> I don’t see anything mechanistically unique about property seizure that would make this tricky to solve.

One of the mechanics at play is suing the property itself, which can’t defend itself for rather obvious reasons. That side steps any property rights with jurisdiction in rem: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._%24124,700_...

IANAL but it’s as stupid as it sounds and it’s been controversial (i.e. United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins)

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by undersuit on Sunday August 18, 2024 @03:39PM (#41284818)
Hmm, does my money have the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed?

(6th Amendment)

Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by zdw on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:25PM (#41283735)
There was a proposal back in the discussion of extending copyright to be "forever minus one day" by the maximalist camp which included Sonny Bono, so there are hacks around "indefinitely".
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by Etheryte on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:52PM (#41283469)
I mean, the US is the only first world country that I know of where this is an issue, clearly there are ways to address this, no?
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by ryandrake on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:53PM (#41283478)
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
Re:Police Cannot Seize Property Indefinitely After an Arrest... by tocs3 on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:22PM (#41284174)