News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Thursday July 11, 2024 @04:45PM (#40940469)
Hi, Lead Dev of WebVM and CTO of Leaning Technologies here. Happy to answer any questions you might have... potentially in a few hours, it's quite late here :-)

Even better, consider joining our Discord: https://discord.gg/yTNZgySKGa

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by bilekas on Thursday July 11, 2024 @05:18PM (#40940683)
Hi thanks for taking part! I have probably very silly questions but why?

What are the use cases you Invision?

Last but not least, an IRC server/channel in lieu of discord? I'm stuck in my ways!

Nice work too, I hope this doesn't come across as flippant.

EDIT: Side note, I opened vi and escape is.. well maybe a browser issue but 'cant exit vi' .. Never thought id say that again

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by zja on Thursday July 11, 2024 @07:13PM (#40941439)
Answer to the second question is that no one uses IRC.

The trend of using discord over forums does suck though, it’s really hard to search old discussions.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by bilekas on Thursday July 11, 2024 @07:23PM (#40941506)
I use IRC.. Discord is fine, I just prefer to have both.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by malux85 on Thursday July 11, 2024 @08:36PM (#40941823)
What are some good places for a technical / programming hangouts on IRC? Can you point me at some materials please?
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by Carrok on Thursday July 11, 2024 @08:41PM (#40941844)
https://libera.chat/

A channel listing will give you _many_ results.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by pests on Thursday July 11, 2024 @09:23PM (#40942026)
I remember back in the day I wouldn't even check the listings, just joining whatever #topic or #hobby or #software and finding it filled with people almost always.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by gwd on Friday July 12, 2024 @04:17AM (#40943594)
Also see https://oftc.net/, where a bunch of older-school development projects hang out. (That's where the Xen Project moved to after freenode imploded, before eventually switching to Matrix.)
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by djbusby on Thursday July 11, 2024 @09:44PM (#40942137)
Another option is a community hosted Mattermost (it's like Discord/Slack/IRC). It's pretty easy to run, all the chat are in PostgreSQL so it's "easy" to produce archive logs (like IRC has). Or do any other magic.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by edm0nd on Thursday July 11, 2024 @11:14PM (#40942487)
IRC still has 270k users in 2024 via https://netsplit.de/

It's not like it used to be in the 90s but that's still something.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by JoeMattiello on Friday July 12, 2024 @03:02AM (#40943291)
How many of those are bots. 270k is basically no one. IRC is dead
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by varenc on Friday July 12, 2024 @03:08AM (#40943313)
Discord has around 200 million monthly active users. At least according to one albeit dubious source: https://backlinko.com/discord-users#discord-monthly-active-u...

Seems reasonable to go with the growing platform with 1000x more users.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by jkhanlar on Thursday July 11, 2024 @11:16PM (#40942491)
> "Answer to the second question is that no one uses IRC."

I agree! I am a nobody and forever will be a proud nobody!

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by Retr0id on Friday July 12, 2024 @01:08AM (#40942849)
The target audience for web-based linux vm is much more likely to use IRC
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by Mutjake on Friday July 12, 2024 @04:00AM (#40943515)
IRC <3 Still daily driving it with some friends. I wouldn’t be surprised if my Discord chat history was unavailable in a decade, so IRC is a nice option to run on the side. There’s value in simplicity, and I admit the risk of sounding like a tech hipster.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by vincentkriek on Friday July 12, 2024 @04:19AM (#40943605)
IRC has no chat history either, right. I get the simplicity of IRC but searchable history is a bonus for Discord. As long as the service is available, searching is kinda possible. With irc you have to find out which bot provides history, which is then usually split over multiple files
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by Mutjake on Saturday July 13, 2024 @04:05AM (#40952577)
My client dies the logging, and I can e.g. grep decade old logs. I’m not sure if you can get same level of access to Discord logs (=export them). I guess Discord bot that logs everything as a historian is a partial solution (I guess log bot cannot catch DMs).
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by jgraham20 on Thursday July 11, 2024 @06:13PM (#40941077)
May it is a browser issue. I was able to exit with ':q<Enter>'
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by bilekas on Thursday July 11, 2024 @06:19PM (#40941118)
Right, I can go to insert mode, but to leave is, tricky. I found going to replace mode and escape worked in FF. I'm sure its a browser issue, I also have vimium so probably a nightmare of hooks!
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by eonpi on Thursday July 11, 2024 @10:48PM (#40942399)
Have you tried with <Control-Left Square Bracket>? aka Ctrl-[, or ^[, as seen sometimes in the terminal. This works for me in most terminals as an alternative to Escape when using vi/vim.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by kuekacang on Friday July 12, 2024 @02:48AM (#40943222)
In mobile (at least in mine, firefox) the input become buferred autocomplete and when accepted via return, the typed word gets duplicated before entered. Workaround is to accept via space and delete as necessary
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by imadj on Friday July 12, 2024 @12:35AM (#40942749)
> What are the use cases you Invision?

Not OP, but they said the following in an answer to similar question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40940707

"The technology is extremely flexibile, off the top of my head:

* Education (Linux, Programming, Security, ...)

* Live docs for arbitrary languages and binary libraries

* Preservation of historical software and games

* Virtualization of legacy Windows enterprise apps.

* Dev environment for Web IDEs

Just a few examples, the list could go on for long"

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by gwd on Friday July 12, 2024 @03:42AM (#40943443)
> Last but not least, an IRC server/channel in lieu of discord? I'm stuck in my ways!

IRC is nice for people who use it, but it has a huuuuge barrier to entry for new users. The very first thing you have to do is choose a client out of a list of 100 clients, half of which haven't been maintained since 2003. Then you need to set up a bouncer somewhere so that you can see messages that were posted when you were away. Those two things will filter out 99.99% of new people.

Or, you could use Discord (or Matrix); people sign up for an account and that's it.

Our open-source project switched from IRC to Matrix (after having been on IRC for over a decade before that), and got a noticeable uptick in engagement.

Unfortunately, Matrix still has some long-standing UI quirks, which would make me reluctant to use it in a context where I want people to pay me money; particularly if some of those are non-technical users.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by jankovicsandras on Friday July 12, 2024 @11:15AM (#40946344)
"huuuuge barrier to entry for new users"

1. go to https://web.libera.chat/

2. click Start (as a Guest account)

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by gwd on Friday July 12, 2024 @12:00PM (#40946767)
3. Discover you can't join a lot of channels because you're not registered; or worse, that your messages sent to the channel are silently discarded

And you still have the problem that if you're in the wrong time zone and happen to close the window, you may miss responses.

There are advantages to having high barriers to entry for a community; Ham radio is essentially a global chat room with an entrance exam, for instance. But there are costs too.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by jankovicsandras on Friday July 12, 2024 @08:45PM (#40950812)
Your point 3. is true generally, but - as I understand - parent wanted to operate a customer support channel and dismissed IRC. In this case: just don't lock your channel for Guests. Timezones affect other platforms, but an IRC bot might help customers when admins sleep. But I'm not sure IRC is best for this use case (e.g. forums, wiki are probably better), but "high barrier of entry" is arguable.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by d_philla on Thursday July 11, 2024 @06:28PM (#40941192)
Hey Alessandro - I'm a huge fan of WebVM + y'all's other work at Leaning Tech.

Curious - is your implementation of how you wrangled lwIP for the networking piece open source? I had previously read the article you linked elsewhere, re: networking, but would love to see the specifics of your approach there.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Friday July 12, 2024 @02:18AM (#40943090)
All the components of the network stack are open source: namely the Tailscale go client and the lwip networking stack. Some (not fully trivial) glue code is also required, which is not currently published. We do plan to cleanup the stack and release it as one of our upcoming internship projects.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by koolala on Thursday July 11, 2024 @06:43PM (#40941264)
Are you associated with Tail Scale? Is Tail Scale like a proxy? Are other options available - is Tail Scale open source too?

edit: Saw your other reply!

https://labs.leaningtech.com/blog/webvm-virtual-machine-with...

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by debarshri on Thursday July 11, 2024 @04:54PM (#40940526)
Hello there, I havent tried webvm yet but looks similar to v86. There were lot of network related challenges working with v86, for eg. You cant do curl, DNS resolution does not work out of the box. How did you address these challenges in webvm. I think it is very interesting and exciting what you guys are building.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Thursday July 11, 2024 @04:59PM (#40940559)
We support networking via Tailscale, we wrote a detailed blog post some time ago: https://labs.leaningtech.com/blog/webvm-virtual-machine-with...
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by theanonymousone on Thursday July 11, 2024 @04:56PM (#40940540)
Hi and thanks for the effort. Is there a roadmap for supporting GUI applications?
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Thursday July 11, 2024 @05:00PM (#40940568)
Yes, we are working on it right now. The immediate priority is booting a complete desktop environment. Next steps will include 3D graphics.
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by mcnesium on Thursday July 11, 2024 @05:16PM (#40940674)
What are some use cases for this?
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Thursday July 11, 2024 @05:21PM (#40940707)
The technology is extremely flexibile, off the top of my head:

* Education (Linux, Programming, Security, ...)

* Live docs for arbitrary languages and binary libraries

* Preservation of historical software and games

* Virtualization of legacy Windows enterprise apps.

* Dev environment for Web IDEs

Just a few examples, the list could go on for long

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by koolala on Thursday July 11, 2024 @07:15PM (#40941452)
You want it to be 3D!! Loading this is a multiplayer social VR sandboxed WebXR environment would be so amazing one day! I wonder if it could all run off-thread in a Worker and one day maybe use webGPU to update textures async! I hope computers can be fun and care free like a game one day and AI companions will let people learn and do anything! Thanks for working to make this!
Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by pmontra on Friday July 12, 2024 @03:46AM (#40943459)
I tested in Firefox on Linux. It works well except:

1. Copy and paste does not work and this could be bad for basically every editing task (programming etc).

2. The screen freezes sometimes and keypresses don't appear. Usually pressing backspace unfreezes the screen. Firefox about:performance doesn't show any CPU usage in the tab. Linux's htop (on my machine) doesn't show anything strange with Firefox.

And a question: I saw that new files persist after closing the tab and opening it again. I didn't investigate my localstorage etc with Developer Tools. Did you use that or some other browser feature? How truly persistent are those files?

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Friday July 12, 2024 @05:42AM (#40944068)
1. Support for traditional copy/paste shortcuts is problematic, since Ctrl-C is interpreted as the SIGINT signal. Copying via the mouse menu should work. Pasting is supported via Ctrl+Shift+V.

2. We had these reported from several users and we will investigate as soon as we can: https://github.com/leaningtech/webvm/issues/102

To answer you question: filesystem chunks are cached/persisted using a local IndexedDB. It provides a fairly strong level of persistence, although the user can wipe it out of course.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by pmontra on Friday July 12, 2024 @08:58AM (#40945124)
Thanks for the reply.

Copy&paste via menu works (I didn't think about it) and Ctrl+Shift+V works too. Ctrl+Shift+C opens Firefox's Developer Tools. It's difficult to find a reasonable shortcut.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by efreak on Friday July 12, 2024 @11:59AM (#40946758)
> it's difficult to find a reasonable shortcut

I don't believe I've ever seen Ctrl+insert and shift+insert makes to anything _other_ than copy and paste.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by pmontra on Friday July 19, 2024 @04:16AM (#41003342)
It works in GNOME Terminal on Linux too. I had no idea of that shortcut. Thanks.

Why have everybody kept using Ctrl-Shift-C and Ctrl-Shift-V since forever included myself?

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by osrec on Friday July 12, 2024 @05:49AM (#40944100)
Could it be possible to run containers within this environment?

I ask because I personally think we are headed towards a future where web browsers are just sandboxed container environments where we download and run containers for each app...

Eventually, even calling them "web" browsers might feel a little odd, almost the way in which we "dial" a phone number today, even though we now mostly key it in on a touch screen.

Re:WebVM is a server-less virtual Linux environment running ... by apignotti on Friday July 12, 2024 @05:55AM (#40944126)
Well, the environment itself is a container. Supporting Linux "namespaces" used to implement containers is also a possibility.

As described in the project README we provide a GitHub Action workflow to convert Dockerfiles into bootable images for WebVM: https://github.com/leaningtech/webvm