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Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @05:43AM (#40688621)
I have FSD v12 and for my drives, in my part of the country, I have to do a mild safety intervention maybe once a week (like, getting closer to another car than I'm comfortable with)

sorry other people are having different experiences, but FSD is a significant quality of life improvement for me. Nothing is nicer than getting in the car after a long day and letting it chauffeur me home. (yes I still pay attention)

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by rjh29 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @05:50AM (#40688647)
People who drive often find basic driving "automatic"; if you still need to be vigilant, maybe even hypervigilant because you're not personally driving the car, what's the advantage?
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @05:57AM (#40688681)
Maybe I'm just a bad driver, but it feels much safer to me having two entities paying attention, instead of just one

It's much more comfortable not to have to micromanage the exact position of the car at every moment, as a manual driver does

I think your "automatic driving" argument is wishful thinking

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by throwup238 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:32AM (#40688824)
> I think your "automatic driving" argument is wishful thinking

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaticity

It’s a well known phenomenon.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:35AM (#40688836)
I don't dispute that people get used to driving, but I think arguing that "driving" requires the same amount of effort as "not driving" is a more specious claim
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by schmuelio on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:00AM (#40689229)
> I think arguing that "driving" requires the same amount of effort as "not driving" is a more specious claim

It's really not, the human brain is _really_ good at abstracting.

In pretty much exactly the same way you don't have to pay attention to balancing to walk, your brain learns to do the same thing for cycling and driving. It abstracts the mechanics of the car (e.g. turning the wheel to turn left/right) and sort of extends its view of your "body" to the car.

This isn't an instantaneous process of course, it takes time to build up that abstraction, but it absolutely exists. If your brain wasn't good at doing those types of abstractions then walking/running/typing/speaking/breathing/etc. would take a phenomenal amount of attention and practice.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by jfoster on Saturday June 15, 2024 @09:03AM (#40689539)
Do you have a theory as to why drcode feels "FSD is a significant quality of life improvement for me"?
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by throwup238 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @10:31AM (#40690057)
Different people have different abilities, just like with literally everything else.

For some people it’s easier to zone out and drive on auto, for others its easier to use FSD. Some people find it easy to zone out in bumper to bumper traffic, others not so much.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by yreg on Saturday June 15, 2024 @02:15PM (#40691554)
Do you use cruise control?
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by JeffL on Saturday June 15, 2024 @08:46AM (#40689454)
I have FSD and totally agree with you. I use it about 90% of the time, feel less stressed and more safe. I feel like I have a good idea and where it might have an issue and am super vigilant in those situations but way more relaxed on those same stretches of road it's driven perfectly 100 times already. It's "nice to have" in normal driving conditions and f-ing wonderful when there's traffic.
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by throwup238 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @11:19AM (#40690307)
> I have to do a mild safety intervention maybe once a week .... (yes I still pay attention)

Except by your own admission you're not "not driving." You're monitoring the car, except without any physical feedback loop with your hands and feet. The only difference in mental load is the physical control of your limbs to do minor speed and direction adjustments. YMMV but I just find that less taxing than vigilantly monitoring a piece of software because I know how that sausage is made.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by ericlewis on Sunday June 16, 2024 @10:13PM (#40701756)
My wife is capable of “automatic driving” and I am not. She describes it as a flow state.
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by kemiller on Saturday June 15, 2024 @07:34AM (#40689094)
You don’t have to be hypervigilant. And in particular you don’t have to pay attention to basic lane keeping, which frees your attention to scanning ahead for potential issues. Not sure if or when it’ll ever be truly autonomous but it’s still a huge value as is. Maybe not $12k like they tried for a while, but significant
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by yreg on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:29AM (#40688810)
>People who drive often find basic driving "automatic"

And yet most of us like cruise control and lane keeping.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by phantompeace on Saturday June 15, 2024 @05:48AM (#40688641)
Nothing beats standing up after my day’s ended and walking to the living room ;)
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @05:53AM (#40688668)
I retired a long time ago, but agree working from home rocks
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by m463 on Sunday June 16, 2024 @01:03AM (#40694796)
I will sell you the pentultimate AI to navigate.

It will prevent dangerous sitations like:

- entering a room and stopping abruptly while wondering why you entered.

- stepping on legos.

- the coffee table shin scenario.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by lucianbr on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:05AM (#40688718)
I wonder if the guy who died when his Telsa drove under a truck would have written a similar comment the day before. What do you think?

I mean this one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2023/t...

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by golol on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:24AM (#40688785)
Mentioning autopilot in an FSD discussion shows you are not familiar with the subject.
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:12AM (#40688746)
Please stop using anecdotes and provide safety statistics in your argument, like this: https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2023/10/Tesla...
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by zwerdlds on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:27AM (#40688800)
But... Your comment was an anecdote too?
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:30AM (#40688817)
safety arguments need to be statistical in nature

there's no such thing as perfect safety

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by kalleboo on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:36AM (#40688842)
"Tesla vehicles not using Autopilot technology" did not even have basic AEB
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:43AM (#40688867)
I would also prefer more granularity on the data, 100%
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by TheAlchemist on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:35AM (#40688838)
If you care about statistics, you would check those numbers, and find that they are basically bullshit.

Tesla does not release any verifiable data on FSD / Autopilot, and for a good reason (good for them).

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:41AM (#40688858)
They're legally required to provide accurate accident data to the government, that's what these figures are based on

If you have information that Tesla is faking statistics it's giving to the government, you should make your evidence public

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by TheAlchemist on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:48AM (#40688888)
No, they are not.

Tesla is pretty much the only car maker that does NOT provide data on autonomous car testing. It's not mandatory.

As for the concerns about the data accuracy, they are very much public now. Here is the latest ongoing NTHSA investigation into Tesla:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf

Some quotes:

"Gaps in Tesla’s telematic data create uncertainty regarding the actual rate at which vehicles operating with Autopilot engaged are involved in crashes. Tesla is not aware of every crash involving Autopilot even for severe crashes because of gaps in telematic reporting. Tesla receives telematic data from its vehicles, when appropriate cellular connectivity exists and the antenna is not damaged during a crash, that support both crash notification and aggregation of fleet vehicle mileage. Tesla largely receives data for crashes only with pyrotechnic deployment,2 which are a minority of police reported crashes.3 A review of NHTSA’s 2021 FARS and Crash Report Sampling System (CRSS) finds that only 18 percent of police-reported crashes include airbag deployments."

"ODI uses all sources of crash data, including crash telematics data, when identifying crashes that warrant additional follow-up or investigation. ODI’s review uncovered crashes for which Autopilot was engaged that Tesla was not notified of via telematics. Prior to the recall, Tesla vehicles with Autopilot engaged had a pattern of frontal plane crashes that would have been avoidable by attentive drivers, which appropriately resulted in a safety defect finding.

Peer Comparison Data gathered from peer IR letters helped ODI document the state of the L2 market in the United States, as well as each manufacturer’s approach to the development, design choices, deployment, and improvement of its systems. A comparison of Tesla’s design choices to those of L2 peers identified Tesla as an industry outlier in its approach to L2 technology by mismatching a weak driver engagement system with Autopilot’s permissive operating capabilities. "

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by Veserv on Saturday June 15, 2024 @01:08PM (#40691026)
Please stop using intentionally falsified statistics by the manufacturer to push product. NHTSA has already stated that Tesla numbers do not even make basic attempts to make the numbers comparable.

Tesla only counts crashes with pyrotechnic deployments. NHTSA has stated this only accounts for ~18% of crashes on average [1] which can be derived from publicly available datasets. No competent statistician or scientist would miss a literal 5x underestimation that is frequently mentioned by laypeople as a source of uncompensated bias and that is easily derivable from well-known public datasets. They make no attempt to account for other less easily computable or subtle forms of bias before blasting it at the top of their lungs to convince customers to risk their lives.

That is intentional falsification meant to push product and has no place in civil society.

[1] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by mlindner on Saturday June 15, 2024 @07:02AM (#40688954)
Why do people keep bringing up this incident that happened in the very early days of the system when it wasn't even called FSD? It isn't representative.
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by qsdf38100 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:11AM (#40688739)
Still paying attention? With a "chauffeur" you don’t have to, that’s the point. Isn’t that a obvious??

Also you’re not personally responsible if your chauffeur has an accident.

The Elon miracle, he scams you, but you still defend him and pretend like you’re happy with the scam. "In less than a year you’ll be able to get from New York to San Francisco during your sleep". That was in 2016. 8 years later, he says "robotaxi" and people still believe him.

It’s a world scale Stockholm syndrome.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by drcode on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:17AM (#40688763)
nobody is forcing you to spend your money on things you don't like

if you don't pay attention when you're driving with a taxi/Uber/chauffeur, that doesn't seem very smart

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by qsdf38100 on Saturday June 15, 2024 @07:57AM (#40689210)
Again, not paying attention to your chauffeur and the road situation is the point of having a chauffeur.
Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by qarl on Saturday June 15, 2024 @11:22AM (#40690328)
> It’s a world scale Stockholm syndrome.

There are a lot of those these days.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by bufferoverflow on Saturday June 15, 2024 @11:39AM (#40690425)
Most people criticizing FSD here have never tried it, never even driven a Tesla. It's just pure derangement.

The latest FSD is pretty damn good.

Re:Tesla's FSD – A Useless Technology Demo by tverbeure on Tuesday June 18, 2024 @09:48PM (#40723977)
Except for the cases where it takes the wrong exit, the wrong lane, starts oscillating, and ignores a don’t-turn-on-right.

And that was in the first 3 of 3 tests.

As the author of this blog post: I drive a Tesla, I tried FSD, and it failed miserably in near perfect conditions. How exactly is that derangement?