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Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by pineaux on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:56PM (#40651367)
So basically, housing is the best investment vehicle based on all the numbers.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:34PM (#40651815)
Housing is only a true investment vehicle if you count all the costs.

Even bare land has to be maintained somewhat. You can't just subtract purchase price from sale price and call it done.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by mensetmanusman on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:09PM (#40652192)
Yeah, it would be interesting to have more transparent costs, especially with inflation. New siding every 20 years is $40k, a new roof might be $30k every 25 years, a new driveway, etc.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by darth_avocado on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:14PM (#40652251)
Biggest of them all: interest. On a $1M mortgage, you’ll almost pay $2M as interest over 30 years even at 7%.

Historically interest was never as low as during the pandemic. And most people bought houses using mortgages. The average “cost” of owning a house is much more than the selling price, even before you account for the upkeep.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by jajko on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @07:05AM (#40656680)
In many places, this can be substracted from taxes, effectively slashing 35-40% of the cost where I live. So does almost all renovation costs (not upgrades though, just repairs).

Also, where I live 7% wasn't the case in past 20 years, and even now its rather 1.5% + whatever bank puts on.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:16AM (#40669283)
The mortgage interest is one of the few costs that people (sometimes) account for. Usually with a hand-waving "my mortgage payment is lower or about the same as my rent payment" - which ignores that a rent payment covers everything whereas the mortgage payment only covers principal, interest (and sometimes insurance and property tax, if escrowed).
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:19PM (#40653836)
I just shudder to think about all my trips to Home Depot over the last 20 years of owning a home.

I never did those when I was renting. Yes, I didn't get to renovate or pick my paint colours. And yes my money paid down someone else's mortgage. But I suspect if you add it all up...

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by nradov on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:55AM (#40654666)
You should add it all up. Some of the things you purchased at Home Depot can be counted in the cost basis of the home and reduce your capital gains tax if you later sell it.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by thyrsus on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:17AM (#40656115)
For most U.S. taxpayers selling a home, the capital gains exclusion on one's primary residence ($500,000 filing jointly) obviates such bookkeeping.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:21AM (#40657259)
No capital gains at all on primary residences here in Canada.

For better or for worse.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:17AM (#40669296)
Really? Really? So if you bought a shack in Vancouver twenty years ago for a song and now it's worth the entire symphony orchestra you can sell it with no taxes?

No wonder prices up there have gone bonkers even by US standards.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:44AM (#40669551)
Yeah 0. None other than land transfer tax which is very little. And if anybody suggested putting in a sane G7 standard tax policy around this, the baby boomers would come rip their head off and parade it around on a pitchfork.

Non-primary residence of course gets fully taxed.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:56AM (#40669703)
It's ... actually a reasonable policy, in some way. It can be quite annoying in the USA when you (if single) have more capital gains than you get "for free" ($250k which sounds like a lot, but if you bought in CA 20 years ago and are now moving, that can get eaten up quickly - a $300k house in 2004 would be almost $500k today from inflation alone) you pay tax.

Then if the house you bought with the proceeds drops in value and you have to sell, you can't claim a deduction for the capital loss.

Of course all capital gains taxes whatsoever have the hidden inflation problem, where you get taxed on the inflation caused by ...

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:59AM (#40669753)
In my opinion all these policies which encourage housing inflation are just the result of western neo-liberal economies trying to cover over their abdication of reasonable retirement/pension policies.

Trudeau was on record a couple weeks ago basically saying "we can't let housing prices fall. if housing prices fall, people won't be able to retire" which is a fucked up admission that there's no way to "retire" without passing debt onto the next generation.

It's not going to end well. It either falls apart in crisis / housing bubble pop, or we end up with some kind of neo-feudalist future slowly developing over the next 100-200 years.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by chii on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:12AM (#40665857)
> yes my money paid down someone else's mortgage.

which is a bit of a non-sequitur - who cares what your rent is paying towards? The landlord could be smoking weed with your rent money and you'd not be affected (financially).

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by spiantino on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:28PM (#40651731)
Especially when you consider all the tax affordances related to owning real estate vs. equities.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:42PM (#40653293)
> all the tax affordances related to owning real estate vs. equities

The only ones I can think of are depreciation (analogous to capital loss harvesting), 1031 exchanges (loosely analogous to step-up basis; this is the biggest difference) and opportunity zones (analogous to QSBS).

If you borrow against your equities, you can deduct the interest paid on that. That mortgage-interest deductions are bigger is a function of the lending being federally guaranteed more than tax law.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by idiotsecant on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:06PM (#40651483)
I wonder if this is still true once population growth reaches zero or negative. It seems like the baked in assumption of housing is that someone else is going to need it more tomorrow than you do today. I think this is an experiment the U.S. will begin running in earnest in the near future.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by betaby on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:19PM (#40651632)
That if won't happen anytime soon neither for the Earth in general nor USA in particular. Media often loves to move goals from population growth to agin g population to fertility rate, etc. All those while connected do not negate the fact that population is growing, and growing fast. That 'once population growth reaches zero or negative' is very theoretical and UN is constantly underestimating population growth. So no, we will not see that in our lifetimes.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by rybosworld on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:27PM (#40651729)
The population growth rate has consistently declined for 50+ years. It's around 0.8% from a peak of 2.2% in the 60's.

There's no reason to think this trend will reverse.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by betaby on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:36PM (#40651842)
Why should we use peak as a benchmark? Even 0.8% is insanely high, at such rate population will double in ~150 years.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by throwawayFinX on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:20PM (#40652303)
The parent is not wrong:

The total number of children in the world has already peaked (2017?) and is now dropping.

The population growth should still continue for about a human lifespan from here (50-80 years depending on who you ask).

That last growth is just those children growing up and becoming adults. I.e. They are the “last big generation”.

We will see the population drop again, if we dont fuck up the planet before that happens.

I think you would have difficulty finding countries in the world where fertility rates (children born pr woman) are not dropping.

Bangladesh went from 5.5 kids pr woman in 1985 to 2.1 in 2017. This is a global trend.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by rybosworld on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:26AM (#40658573)
> Why should we use peak as a benchmark?

I'm not sure what you mean by the peak being a benchmark. There's a very clear trend of population growth declining every year since the 60's.

> Even 0.8% is insanely high, at such rate population will double in ~150 years

I think you are missing the part where the rate has been declining every year.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by betaby on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @10:44AM (#40658757)
I think you are missing 'in our lifetime', even though you are quoting 'will double in ~150 years'. Also 'declining every year' doesn't mean it won't start growing again.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by rybosworld on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:54PM (#40660268)
> I think you are missing 'in our lifetime'

I guess it depends when you are born. Peak population is predicted around 2075, and that's within a lot of people's lifetime.

> Also 'declining every year' doesn't mean it won't start growing again

That's a bit obvious and is equivalent to saying "anything could happen".

But unless you have a good reason for a reversal in trend, then there's no reason to think it will.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by mensetmanusman on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:10PM (#40652202)
China loses 300 million in the next century, we will start witnessing the impact before we die.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bee_rider on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:26PM (#40651712)
Most developed countries will probably run the experiment before us, as long as we can keep the country appealing enough to keep attracting immigrants.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:36PM (#40651838)
It has happened, and recently, multiple times on local scales.

"House go up" may be generally true in the abstract, but that doesn't mean this particular house goes up.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by monero-xmr on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:30PM (#40651767)
Buy housing in hyper desirable areas that rarely become more dense. Everyone always loves the beach, whether there are 1% fewer humans next year or not.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by _DeadFred_ on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:47PM (#40651975)
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by darth_avocado on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:15PM (#40652258)
The hyper desirable areas are no longer affordable to even millionaires.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by pessimizer on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:26PM (#40652834)
Yes, but only because you can overcharge rents to people who can't afford housing. If everyone could afford housing, it wouldn't have any return.

The return on housing rents is equal to the minimum (psychological) expectation that landlords expect. It's an arbitrary vig/rake, and like all arbitrary vigs/rakes, it's around 5%. It's an expected gift for owning the house. It's a gratuity for being wealthy enough that you're never forced to buy or sell.

An aside is that this rate was set in one context by currency and convention: an English pound was 20 shillings, and a guinea was 21. So when you won an auction, you would pay the auction house in guineas, and the auction house would pay the owner of the item in pounds, giving a 4.75% share to the house. Racehorses are still sold this way, although aren't any guineas or shillings any more, it's now 1£ and 1.05£.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by chii on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:15AM (#40665871)
> It's an expected gift for owning the house.

it's not a gift (implying it's free).

Owning capital has a cost - the cost of capital (aka, the cost of money). At minimum, the cost is the risk free interest rate.

The owner paid a pretty penny (or borrowed, at a higher than risk-free rate) to buy the property. The previous seller did the same, or invested capital in building the property itself. So therefore, "owning a house" is the last chain in a sequence of investments, all of which costs money.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by betaby on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:04PM (#40651461)
Earth's population is constantly growing, thus yes.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by jstanley on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:14PM (#40651572)
Before 1950, yes.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by andrepd on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:57PM (#40651380)
Sad state of affairs, but yes.