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Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:34PM (#40651815)
Housing is only a true investment vehicle if you count all the costs.

Even bare land has to be maintained somewhat. You can't just subtract purchase price from sale price and call it done.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by mensetmanusman on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:09PM (#40652192)
Yeah, it would be interesting to have more transparent costs, especially with inflation. New siding every 20 years is $40k, a new roof might be $30k every 25 years, a new driveway, etc.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by darth_avocado on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:14PM (#40652251)
Biggest of them all: interest. On a $1M mortgage, you’ll almost pay $2M as interest over 30 years even at 7%.

Historically interest was never as low as during the pandemic. And most people bought houses using mortgages. The average “cost” of owning a house is much more than the selling price, even before you account for the upkeep.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by jajko on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @07:05AM (#40656680)
In many places, this can be substracted from taxes, effectively slashing 35-40% of the cost where I live. So does almost all renovation costs (not upgrades though, just repairs).

Also, where I live 7% wasn't the case in past 20 years, and even now its rather 1.5% + whatever bank puts on.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:16AM (#40669283)
The mortgage interest is one of the few costs that people (sometimes) account for. Usually with a hand-waving "my mortgage payment is lower or about the same as my rent payment" - which ignores that a rent payment covers everything whereas the mortgage payment only covers principal, interest (and sometimes insurance and property tax, if escrowed).
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:19PM (#40653836)
I just shudder to think about all my trips to Home Depot over the last 20 years of owning a home.

I never did those when I was renting. Yes, I didn't get to renovate or pick my paint colours. And yes my money paid down someone else's mortgage. But I suspect if you add it all up...

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by nradov on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:55AM (#40654666)
You should add it all up. Some of the things you purchased at Home Depot can be counted in the cost basis of the home and reduce your capital gains tax if you later sell it.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by thyrsus on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @05:17AM (#40656115)
For most U.S. taxpayers selling a home, the capital gains exclusion on one's primary residence ($500,000 filing jointly) obviates such bookkeeping.
Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @08:21AM (#40657259)
No capital gains at all on primary residences here in Canada.

For better or for worse.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:17AM (#40669296)
Really? Really? So if you bought a shack in Vancouver twenty years ago for a song and now it's worth the entire symphony orchestra you can sell it with no taxes?

No wonder prices up there have gone bonkers even by US standards.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:44AM (#40669551)
Yeah 0. None other than land transfer tax which is very little. And if anybody suggested putting in a sane G7 standard tax policy around this, the baby boomers would come rip their head off and parade it around on a pitchfork.

Non-primary residence of course gets fully taxed.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by bombcar on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:56AM (#40669703)
It's ... actually a reasonable policy, in some way. It can be quite annoying in the USA when you (if single) have more capital gains than you get "for free" ($250k which sounds like a lot, but if you bought in CA 20 years ago and are now moving, that can get eaten up quickly - a $300k house in 2004 would be almost $500k today from inflation alone) you pay tax.

Then if the house you bought with the proceeds drops in value and you have to sell, you can't claim a deduction for the capital loss.

Of course all capital gains taxes whatsoever have the hidden inflation problem, where you get taxed on the inflation caused by ...

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by cmrdporcupine on Thursday June 13, 2024 @09:59AM (#40669753)
In my opinion all these policies which encourage housing inflation are just the result of western neo-liberal economies trying to cover over their abdication of reasonable retirement/pension policies.

Trudeau was on record a couple weeks ago basically saying "we can't let housing prices fall. if housing prices fall, people won't be able to retire" which is a fucked up admission that there's no way to "retire" without passing debt onto the next generation.

It's not going to end well. It either falls apart in crisis / housing bubble pop, or we end up with some kind of neo-feudalist future slowly developing over the next 100-200 years.

Re:The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015 (2019) by chii on Thursday June 13, 2024 @12:12AM (#40665857)
> yes my money paid down someone else's mortgage.

which is a bit of a non-sequitur - who cares what your rent is paying towards? The landlord could be smoking weed with your rent money and you'd not be affected (financially).