Sometimes the alarm limits are set incorrectly by the RT or aren’t forgiving enough to allow some motion. When you see an entire ward of nurses totally ignoring alarms it’s a management failure. Either there aren’t enough nurses available to manage the issue or there aren’t enough technicians to properly configure the equipment for each patient. If someone dies because of that then it’s ultimately the hospital’s fault.

I will not say it was a management failure because I don't know if management could have done anything about it. Given the total indifference of the nurses I strongly suspect they couldn't do anything.

Alarms with incessant false positives are inherently dangerous. Sure, there's some threshold of false positives, under which we should still expect people to investigate all alarms. But above that threshold, how can we continue to blame the people involved? The hardware is at fault.

Seriously, what would motivate you to make a comment like that? Do you think medical device engineers and clinicians are unaware of the false alarm issue and haven't already tried a variety of improvements? There is an inherent trade-off between false alarms and missing a real problem. And devices need to be not only accurate but also affordable, durable, and cost effective. It's not easy to get this right.

Three times as many leads would be pretty annoying, though.

I remember an accident report. It was about a container ship which had a bad flooding incident in their engineering spaces. One thing the report pointed out that the engineers had ways to fight the flooding, but they were not doing them because they were playing whack-a-mole with all the alarms caused by the flood. If i recall correctly the engineers kept ignoring the waist deep and rising water and prioritised silencing the alarms. (And not because they were stupid, but just because the many independent blaring alarms task-saturated them.)

That's common in computer monitoring systems, at my last job when we had a serious outage, we'd get dozens of pager alerts, it was hard to figure out the root cause because so many alerts fired that were caused by the root cause. I.e. like if the root cause was a root volume was out of disk space, the "unable to log in" alert was superfluous and not helpful. Eventually we moved to a better system that had a betrer sense of hierarchy for alerts as well as a way to easily silence them.

All of those sound superficially plausible to me, although I have my ideas on which are more likely... Would you even do an, um, incident post mortem for something like that or would it just be a statistic?

Or, a local case, the nurses were complaining about shoddy supplies. Eventually the holes in the swiss cheese lined up and a baby died. The hospital tried to treat it as a murder by the nurse. (Claiming the line was cut, rather than it broke.)

I think they could substantially improve patient outcomes by taking some tips from the best modern birthing centers, and make a quiet, relaxing, dimly lit, and peaceful environment at hospitals. I'd also say add some plants, natural (wood) surfaces and natural light, but realize that might make it hard to keep things sterile and private. It would make sense to create a rough schedule for each patient also with a consistent "left alone unless there is an emergency" time for sleep, etc.

I would imagine a calm and quiet physical environment would also reduce stress, fatigue, and improve performance of the medical staff themselves.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/10/14/icu-delirium-hospitals/

But it's tough to make improvements. Regular hospital design is (roughly) optimized for staff productivity. They need to be able to treat and monitor many patients simultaneously which requires clear sight lines, good lighting, and a high level of automation. A more humane hospital design would also require more staff at a time when we already have a severe shortage. Where would the funding come from?

If you're a multibillionaire then obviously you can just hire and equip your own private medical team that will focus 100% of their attention and care exclusively on you and your needs. The vast majority of the humans will never have that luxury. Normal people enter the system and are processed like everyone else.

My ward even managed to have the (networked digitally controlled, and do presumably very expensive) lighting set up so the night lighting was inside the curtains and shining directly into the bed spaces, and the main ward lights would come up if you touched the wrong thing (even the nurses weren't quite sure exactly what the proximal causes of lighting changes was). With the pumps alarming the whole time (about once per night, per patient, up to 20 minutes until resolution each time) plus all the other regular medical checks preventing any extended quiet time, it was absolutely exhausting at a very deep level.

If the cost of a actual negative is 100 and the cost of an actual positive is 1. You'd expect there to be approximately 100 times more false negatives, because we want to be 100 times more sensitive to the costly negative condition.

I'm this sense, the alarms in hospitals make sense. Actual negative are very costly.

But this is a cold mathematical analysis that doesn't consider alarm fatigue and the cost of people learning to ignore the alarm. I wonder how to best model human nature in this calculation?

An optimal solution would require considering all alarms, and modeling the fact that every alarm given is another alarm ignored (assuming the hospital is operating at capacity, if it's below capacity the solution is easy, just manually check all alarms). This system might realize that the 4th "no pulse" alarm of the night for Alice would detract from the 1st "no pulse" alarm for Bob, and that Bob's is more likely to need attention. I'd be terrified to program such a system though, and from what I've seen in corporate programming environments, I'm not confident any company could get this right.

They really do not want false negatives because that gets them sued. Thus the system will be set up to err on the side of false positives--the current liability climate does not blame them for alarm fatigue.

Consider a local case (although it's possible it was overturned on appeal): Yes, the doctor was unquestionably playing loose with standard safety precautions. His behavior transmitted blood-borne infections. He died in prison which was well deserved.

However, the lawyers went hunting for some deep pockets. The manufacturer of the drug involved in the cross contamination. They made various size vials, including some that were bigger than would be used on one patient. This permitted the doctor to contaminate between patients and got them hit with a $250M verdict. (Never mind that had they truly only used clean needles with them like they should have there never would have been an issue. They used a new needle but the old syringe.)

That's the sort of insane legal pressure driving the garbage.

The reality was we knew what was going on just by listening to the alarms. I could predict which alarm was going to go off before it did and so I could safely (appear to) ignore them. I would only panic if an unexpected alarm went off (or happened in an unexpected sequence). It is possible the same situation was going on in the hospital.

Like residents who are getting a few hours of sleep over days worth of high-stress / high-stakes work, poor hand-washing between patients, and not clearly printing one's handwriting on prescription forms - all things that kill patients - doctors and hospital administrators just don't care enough.

For a profession that is supposedly so pure morality-wise - do no harm, patient privacy, etc - doctors are remarkably careless.

The economic recommendation is to deregulate the medical personnel industry and allow supply to increase. A great many smart and good people would love to become doctors but aren't in love with 5 years of residency and taking a quarter million dollars in debt to make less than their dropout cousin does at Netflix.

And salaries to plummet.

Who's gonna be the first to volunteer to spend about 14 hours of their day in some shithole hospital nearly every day sacrificing their own health and sanity for the sake of others, all while making a fraction of what people here make? Deny people their prosperity and suddenly going to medical school turns into a stupid and irrational decision and something only rich people will put up with for the status.

Plus, play the tape forward. You're working 14 hour days and your pay has been halved in the last 5 years. What can you negotiate on? More pay probably isn't an option. How about working only 12 hour days for 6/7s the (already reduced) pay? That might be doable. In a decade, you might even be working a normal 9 to 5 again. The horror!

Becoming a doctor is quite simply a stupid decision if you're not gonna get rich off it. You're replying to a citizen of a country which implemented your idea and then some. Believe it when I say the "get into medical school and you're set for life" meme has worn off.

You haven't seen the damage that stupid indebted underpaid doctors are capable of causing. I'm actually afraid of getting sick. Killing patients? I've seen worse.

"[T]he Brazilian healthcare system has achieved significant success in improving population coverage, reducing infant mortality rates [a 4-fold drop!], and controlling infectious diseases." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10231901/

It sounds like doctors are actually doing a much better job there nowadays than they were 35 years ago. The facts I see simply don't match your outrage.

Let's rid ourselves of all these polite euphemisms though. Here's a likely incomplete list of all the things that you don't see.

What you don't see is the communist president of the worker's party who is literally quoted saying "we need to create a new generation of leftist doctors who accept working for less". Population needs doctors, and they vote, so give them what they want: more doctors. And when you want quantity, then obviously you also want cheap. Flood the market with doctors, open hundreds of new schools with ever more lax filters and bring in doctors from neighboring countries too even though they seem to be in even worse shape than us. Problem solved, look at all those happy voters.

The government's latest move was to remove doctors from the decision making positions that control residencies in an obvious preparation to flood the market with "specialists" by dumbing down the requirements and opening new residency programs, no doubt without any concern for quality.

There's already a huge number of medics, they just happen to be concentrated in the major cities and capitals. The simple fact is nobody wants to live in some undeveloped shithole. Living in Brazil to begin with is punishment enough, there just aren't many maniacs around here who are willing to work and live in the literal amazon jungle. Even comically high salaries fail to attract doctors to areas like that. Partly because quality of life is abysmal and partly because those little villages are so poor they're actually likely to default on those payments anyway so there's no point. Those are the places where the government wants to ship doctors off to though. You'd think they'd develop the country instead so that people in general would want to move there but that's too difficult. Better to just destroy the profession of the "mercenary" doctors instead until they're so squeezed they have little choice.

You don't see the hundreds of brazilian medical schools soaking up billions in government student loans while providing mediocre education. Student loans were devastating for academic integrity everywhere in the world including the US but this country always manages to make it worse by not even pretending to give a shit about quality. In the US medicine apparently escaped that fate due to stronger regulation. In Brazil? So many of these medical schools do not even have an actual hospital for medical students to practice on. How do you become a doctor without seeing patients? You don't.

You don't see the palpable pessimism in health care workers, as a class. What was once a profession that guaranteed prosperity turned into essentially a joke. Doctors generally do not recommend that their children follow in their footsteps. Why would they want their children to bust ass in medical school just to make six dollars a patient? That's just stupid. And those are the lucky ones. The family medicine workers of the study you cited usually make even less than that. This new generation of doctors is feeling the pressure, meanwhile older generations of doctors are taking the wealth they built up and bootstrapping actual businesses instead.

You don't see the 40 thousand newly minted doctors of dubious quality entering the job market every single year. That obviously brings about difficulties with job and residency availability, not to mention the massive and constant downward pressure on salaries. So how does a newly minted doctor react to this adversity? Charlatanism. You don't see the rampant charlatanism on social media. Social media platforms are absolutely filled with them. "Professionals" promising miracle cures, promising results, just basically doing everything that medical ethics says they can't do. That includes passing themselves off as specialists while having a fraction of the education, or just straight up advertising "specialties" they just made up on the spot.

Hilariously, these charlatans are actually the ones who are making it in this distorted reality. They do things like charge people thousands for aminoacid injections that literally do nothing. Brazilian medicine regressed to literal "blow smoke up people's ass" charlatanism and these people are getting rich off it. Do you know what coffee enemas are good for? I haven't the slightest clue but you bet there are doctors doing that to patients literally right now.

Ever seen an unemployed doctor? Ever seen doctors become Uber drivers? Cashiers? I have. It used to be a meme. Then it actually started happening. Salary only ever decreases. We have emergency services paying the lowest and ever decreasing salaries. What kind of doctor do you think that's going to attract? The simple fact is there aren't enough hospitals in this country for all of them. Most of the ones we do have are in such disrepair that nobody sane would actually want to work there. The decentralized public health care system familiy medicine situation is even more precarious. There are places in this country that not have a working sink for doctors to wash their hands with. You simply cannot exercise your profession with dignity under such conditions.

You don't see the criminally stupid doctors who fuck up so bad they end up on national television. Doctors working an ER who are so stupid they don't run a simple EKG on a patient with textbook myocardial infarction symptoms. Imagine being this fuckup's lawyer. And it's not an isolated case either, their numbers are increasing. The fact is in Brazil any moron can become a doctor these days and you better believe it shows. The problem with that is people's loved ones die in the process and there's no amount of damages that will bring them back. A few years ago I nearly died of appendicitis myself because they initially blamed my symptoms on COVID19. The doctors who saved my life were all older than the public health system the paper you googled talks about. They're becoming rare now, and knowing that makes me afraid of getting sick again.

I seriously hope you reconsider this "just increase supply" nonsense. I know HN hates doctors and it's kind of a tall order but I sincerely hope what I wrote here makes some impact. Simple solutions like that will not accomplish what you want.

https://savegme.org/

There has already been deregulation to an extent. The scope of practice for lower licenses such as Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants has been increased in many states such that they are now allowed to perform most primary care services. This is a great option for other smart and good people who don't want to spend 3 - 7+ years in residency and take on enormous student loans.

Where you go off the rails is with saying "don't care enough". This is a market problem, not a problem with individuals. "We don't overwork our people" isn't a selling point with insurance. The budget is pretty much fixed, a company that doesn't overwork their people ends up in the red.