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Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:23AM (#40572714)
I have a theory, which I have no way of backing up or testing at all, that the entire slump in the laptop segment is driven by the fact that Windows is just utterly user-hostile garbage, and there aren’t any alternatives really, other than MacOS, which is too tied to Apple.

Like any reasonable tech savvy person I use Linux of course, but I’d have trouble suggesting it… lots of people just don’t want to use the terminal at all.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by TheCapeGreek on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:35AM (#40572793)
I agree. I've been a Linux user since 2017, and in the last year transitioned to an M1 MBP for the battery life (cheaper than buying an inverter+batteries in South Africa with loadshedding).

Tried to upgrade to a new machine last month. New-ish (and not name brand) hardware made Linux unusable on it (keyboard & BT wouldn't work), while Windows was passable. After some work I decided to try working on Windows again. Honestly the worst OS experience I've had in years, because at every step there's some default setting that basically equates to "Microsoft will do whatever they want on your machine" and it's hard to turn off permanently.

Then I tried to go back to Manjaro where I had a stable work experience from 2020-2022, and compared to macOS, it was just a pain getting the same dev environment back up. Ubuntu wouldn't have been much different.

I dislike Apple for a lot of things, and really don't like the absurd Apple Tax on having a usable amount of RAM, but it is still the best (and most stable) dev machine I've had in years.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by haspok on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:50AM (#40572922)
To be fair, it is quite typical for cutting edge hardware not working in Linux for the first few months. Kernel devs have to catch up, and depending on your distro this might take a while. Best is to wait until support matures, or go with last year's option.

(Not that it really makes much difference in Intel-world anyway, the difference these days is not very noticeable - I am typing this on a Thinkpad X1 Gen 5, which was released... in 2017. Can't justify buying a new laptop, each year I have a look and wonder, what the benefit would be.)

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @08:36AM (#40573867)
iGPUs are getting better at a good clip, I think. Maybe we can have GPiGPU worth caring about soon.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:29AM (#40573242)
I don’t think I could use a MacBook, I enjoy tinkering with my computer too much.

I loathe cellphones, though, so I have an iPhone. It is fine. It belongs to Apple really. Someday maybe it will be easy enough to put together something like a Raspberry Pi cellphone. But, for now, I’ll just rent one from Apple and let them handle everything.

They make fine devices for people who don’t like that type of device. No wonder they are doing so well, people who hate tech is a huge market, and we’re doing our best to expand it every day.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by paulmd on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:29PM (#40579622)
i mean, macos is just unix, and you will do a lot of tinkering given how many bad defaults it's got, and how many weird foibles etc. I have a script which fixes all my file assignments after a brew upgrade because macos grabs them back when the old application is uninstalled, for example, plus about five third-party apps living in my toolbar (plus bartender to manage them all etc).

idk why people think macos is super locked down, it's not at all like the phones. the reason the AI revolution is happening on Apple second is because there's actually an enormous amount of technical people using macos these days. if they couldn't run a python script how would pytorch have ever happened etc?

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by talldayo on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @08:43PM (#40580348)
> the reason the AI revolution is happening on Apple second

...is because Apple goes out of their way to arbitrarily disable your ability to run Nvidia drivers?

So much for "not locked down" I guess. But at least they still lets you install apps for free, it's nothing like the phones. How generous.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by cjk2 on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:39AM (#40572811)
Same situation here. Apple is not the best option, but it's the least shit.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by aaomidi on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:59AM (#40572997)
You went to the one OS that’s practically universally shunned because of how unstable it makes arch systems n.n
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by fattegourmet on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:30AM (#40572749)
>lots of people just don’t want to use the terminal at all

That's unfortunate, since the article notes: "Another method of bypassing the account lockdown still exists. You simply have to enter OOBE\BYPASSNRO in the command prompt during the Windows 11 setup process, which allows you to skip the connection to the Internet and thus also the link to a Microsoft account."

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by orev on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @12:56PM (#40576599)
Using the terminal for day to day things is different than having to use it one time during the setup process.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by nope1000 on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:29AM (#40572744)
But do they know they don't have to use a terminal? You can use Linux Mint perfectly fine without ever opening a terminal, like MacOS. Seems like more of a reputation issue.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by baobun on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:39AM (#40572813)
It's an issue of supply-chains and gap in the market. I can't buy a generally competitive Linux Mint (or anything similar) device in a shop anywhere in my country as far as I know. Whereas existing vocal demand are generally tinkerer types who often want the opposite of what we actually need. So I can see why it's a difficult market to bootstrap. Meanwhile, incumbent hardware vendors have competence and interest elsewhere and are probably getting decent incentives from Microsoft...

Valve's been bringing eberyone forward. I wish System76 et al to keep on their optimistic trajectory, for what that's worth. And Framework would be in a great position to spin out a dist or just offer a community install (fingers crossed Manjaro don't get them loljk).

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by quantumspandex on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:38AM (#40572810)
Only if all you ever do is web browsing and do some light office work. As soon as you have to troubleshoot something or install some less popular software, you can't avoid it.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by nope1000 on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @10:35AM (#40575076)
I would hazard a guess that this (+ gaming) is how most people use their personal computers. Most users live in their browsers.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:12AM (#40573111)
I don’t know. I prefer to use the terminal wherever possible, so any “you can use Linux without the terminal” advice I’d give would just be me passing along stuff I heard on the internet. I’m not going to proactively offer that up.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by Etheryte on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:30AM (#40572751)
The sad reality is that Linux that e.g. my mom and dad could use day in and day out without any tech support always feels like it's a few years away, and has felt that way for decades now. Linux won the server space, but outside of that, it's a hard sell to suggest anyone not tech savvy should use it. I'm sure there's loads of people who do use it despite the pains anyway, but for the wider audience I don't really see it as a realistic alternative.

Sure, you can use a browser on any distro and pretend it's fine, but the buck stops the moment something as innocent looking as printing or transferring a file to your phone comes up.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by blueflow on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:34AM (#40572778)
I think we crossed the point where Linux is less shitty than Windows. KDE and XFCE can compete.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by Etheryte on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:37AM (#40572804)
That could very well be, but less shitty is the wrong metric. Can get shit done is the right metric, regular users don't care about corporate telemetry and adware so long as it doesn't get in the way of getting their stuff done. A good example of what I mean is a work event I attended a year or two ago. We had a bunch of guys up on the stage and between the lot they probably had over a century of combined Linux experience. Still, it took them a good 10-15 minutes to get the projector working. Now imagine a regular user in that situation.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:02AM (#40573022)
For some time I had a Linux NUC, so no monitor. When I had to give a presentation I’d set it up to boot straight into the slides. I thought that was pretty slick. I’d bring a keyboard for emergencies but didn’t need to plug it in, just a slide advancer. But it required preparing beforehand. Linux is the Batman of OSes. You can do anything, but it requires prep time.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by Kim_Bruning on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:33AM (#40573269)
Who says the windows or mac users would be any quicker, per-se? Some days the windows folks get lucky, sometimes the mac folks get lucky, and some days the Linux person might actually get done faster than everyone else (it has happened!).

If you need to use local hardware you haven't used before; it's always a good idea to arrive well in advance to get yourself set up. You never know what you might run in to.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by blueflow on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:47AM (#40572886)
How? I thought this was a solved problem. I've been using arandr for a decade.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @08:11AM (#40573642)
Hard to guess, if someone doesn’t use many different setups they might just not be familiar with arandr.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by squarefoot on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:00AM (#40573004)
> it took them a good 10-15 minutes to get the projector working.

I installed my old projector ages ago, on a 1st version PPC Mac Mini running Debian and the Freevo media player (if memory serves, Kodi didn't even exist as XBMC back then). No problems whatsoever setting up the whole thing, aside the atrociously loud BONNNG! the Mac Mini played when turned on, but that's another story. I think setting up hardware is a hit and miss, and sometimes crap happens also under Windows where drivers are packaged according to brand, not chipset, and often bring all sort of junk with them.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by mistercheph on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:06AM (#40573057)
How disingenous, this comedic scenario is literally a mainstay at any tech conference
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by ryandrake on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @01:13PM (#40576779)
You're exactly right. Many normal users are "single issue voters" when it comes to OS choice. Linux could be the best operating system in the world, and Windows could be flaming trash that will drain your bank account and shoot your puppy, but if the user has an application that's important to them that runs on Windows but not Linux, they will always choose the "shoot my puppy" choice because at the end of the day they just want to ruin that application.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by figassis on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:43AM (#40572852)
I fully agree. There is no choice. People need to be on a certain income bracket to own macs. On a certain tech literacy level to own Linux laptops. So They've all been born and grew up on Windows. Recently I setup a recently purchased windows laptop.

Cleared all the crap, did not have the energy to work around online accounts, so setup one. All working. Great! 6 months later, Genuine Windows warning shows up on desktop, windows keeps asking to add product key. We never received one.

All the guides to retrieve it fail. I gave up, wiped the machine, installed Linux but had to give the person another windows laptop bc they had no idea how ot use Linux desktop.

Currently, my brother wants my help setting up some apps on his windows (he's an architect, so you know the heavy CAD stuff). I'm running away from him like the plague...managed to avoid him for 2 months, wonder how long I can last til he corners me.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by pcdoodle on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @08:57AM (#40574086)
With open core legacy patcher, there are quite a few of us enjoying 2012 and newer MacBooks that cost as little as $150.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by squarefoot on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:43AM (#40572851)
> the entire slump in the laptop segment is driven by the fact that Windows is just utterly user-hostile garbage

Partially true, but I wouldn't rule out the marketing driven belief that cellphones are just like smaller laptops, which is utter BS.

Regarding Linux, I've installed Manjaro on some laptops and desktops for non techies, even seniors, and all of them (but one due to incompatibility with a proprietary Windows app) kept using it without any issues. I'm more a Debian user, also liking Alpine a lot on small systems and servers, but found Manjaro to be quite good for laptops and desktops that need to just work without fiddling too much with the command line.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bartvk on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:30AM (#40572750)
Chromebook, if you're okay with Google having your data.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by lioeters on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:08AM (#40573073)
Sigh. This is the state of personal computing in the early 21st century. Most people are running operating systems and computers made by corporations that are actively user hostile, hungry for private data (except maybe Apple), and experts at dark patterns. Scammy behavior has become normalized throughout the industry.

Kinda makes me think, tech literate people have a moral responsibility to push back somehow and contribute towards a more healthy relationship between technology and humanity.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by thefz on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:30AM (#40572748)
> Windows is just utterly user-hostile garbage

Not like Apple is different, they apply the worst user hostile practices they can get way with and then tell you it's for your good. Like you don't even own the computer you bought.

Think of the app store alone, or installing another OS. You can't run any software you want on their machines, you can't even repair them.

Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by bee_rider on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:25AM (#40573212)
Apple was worse that Microsoft for some time, because they were actually competent enough to lock users out of their devices. Unfortunately MS has improved their code quality to the point that there’s only one work around for their latest attack on their users. At this rate they might completely defeat their users by windows 13 or 14.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by xcv123 on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:37AM (#40572801)
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by thefz on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:51AM (#40573453)
Bare bone functionality and half of the hardware not working. No thanks, keep your apple computers, they are going to be in a landfill soon anyway.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by xcv123 on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:58AM (#40573521)
Most of the hardware is supported now. My old HP laptop disintegrated within a few years and became landfill, but my 9 year old Mac is indestructible and runs anything I want. Linux, Windows, macOS. Also repaired it myself (new battery, new left speaker). The latest Macs are built like tanks and will easily last 10+ years.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by fattegourmet on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @06:35AM (#40572788)
Your reply seems entirely focused on Apple, when the article is about Windows 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by thefz on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @07:50AM (#40573448)
The comment I reply to is.
Re:Microsoft blocks Windows 11 workaround that enabled local... by npteljes on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @09:02AM (#40574146)
Since there are smartphones, they are the most convenient everyday computing devices. They are a great and useful package of functionality, a real swiss army knife of digital capabilities, and their portability is on another level, compared to a laptop. So what actually happened is that people don't buy laptops, because they already have smartphones, and the smartphone can basically do everything they need to do.

With suggesting Linux, I too have trouble, but honestly, that's mainly because people don't need it. I believe it to be superior to Windows, morally and technologically, but the fact is that people prefer convenience, and Windows is more convenient. Windows also has a lot of moat built by business machinations, so now the de-facto PC platform is Windows, and the de-facto office formats are MS Office formats, and while Linux has some compatibility, this is not something that people want to fiddle with, when they just need it "work".

What actually works is when manufacturers build an entire OOTB experience on top of Linux - like how the Steam Deck is.