News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by atan2 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @02:40PM (#40515267)
"one simple principle: make good products and charge money for them."

Thank you for the one-time purchase option. It's a win already on today's software world.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by baby on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:14PM (#40516460)
I just looked at two pomodoro apps on the app store, one had a one-time purchase fee, the other had a subscription only model. It's a freaking pomodoro app! I can't believe I have to pay for that in the first place (why doesn't the countdown app of Apple not have a widget =.=) but a subscription? People are greedy af.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by yumraj on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:09PM (#40517053)
> People are greedy af.

Personally, for smaller developers, I attribute this more to ignorance than malice (greed). Pricing is hard so they just look around and pick what they see happening around them without taking a moment even to think, forget about doing actual research.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by hiatus on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:17PM (#40517130)
These smaller developers go through the trouble of building an app and getting verified for distribution on the App Store but don't give even a moment's thought to pricing? Surely the easiest option is free compared to some arbitrary monthly price and having to set up payments, etc.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by fragmede on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:01PM (#40518120)
"having to set up payments, etc"

people (including me) complain about apple taking a 30% cut from developers, but for that money, they do make that part easy.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by mewpmewp2 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:28PM (#40517232)
But why should people do apps for free?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Zambyte on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:49PM (#40517451)
People should be paid to do something, rather than be paid for something they did.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by mewpmewp2 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:59PM (#40517537)
What? I create something, and I shouldn't be able to sell it? What?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Zambyte on Thursday May 30, 2024 @07:31AM (#40522479)
Software isn't a "thing" so there is nothing to sell. The only way to monetize software is to monetize the labor of writing it directly. When you "sell" "licenses" to software, you're just double, triple, N dipping on monetizing labor that already happened.

The alternative is charging to write software, which is actually how most people (employees) make money writing software. Corporations take advantage of the difference between paying people to write software, and charging people over and over again to use the same software that has already been written.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by hiatus on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:02AM (#40524598)
I never said "they should do apps for free". I was rebutting the idea that small app developers don't give any thought to pricing and just use a monthly subscription, which sounds like more work than just giving it away for free. If they landed on a subscription model they must have given it _some_ thought.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by yumraj on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:34PM (#40517869)
Obviously they want to be paid.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by runeb on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:39PM (#40516762)
iOS and macOS ships with Pomodoro. Open Shortcuts and you should see it.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by rahimnathwani on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:29PM (#40516641)
If you don't mind a PWA, I like this:

https://qoomon.github.io/time-timer-webapp/

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by runako on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:27PM (#40517225)
> People are greedy af.

Putting on my Older Person hat for a moment, software from indie publishers used to cost in the ballpark of $40 in the late 1980s (that's ~$100 in 2024 dollars after adjusting for inflation). $100 for a single version of a single app. When the next point release comes out, the publisher might give you a discount of 50%, so it might only cost you $50. A major release was often required for compatibility with a new OS version.

All the software we used back in the day? We spent significant money on it.

Do you think apps like these pomodoro apps would sell in sustainable quantities if it were $100 for major releases and $50 for point releases? What if it were $100 to get the current version every time iOS did a major version upgrade?

Or is it more likely that these apps would simply not exist?

People say they want one-time purchases, but the small $ subscriptions are more consumer-friendly than is immediately apparent. And they support a vastly more comprehensive software ecosystem.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by rchaud on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:08PM (#40518644)
> software from indie publishers used to cost in the ballpark of $40 in the late 1980s

Why go that far back? The average computer back then cost thousands of dollars, much more than what an iPhone costs now in inflation-adjusted terms. The App Store is not a new invention, it's been around since 2008, and for year apps were sold for a flat one-time fee.

The reason everything is a subscription now is because accountants decided that recurring revenue was how every startup should be valued, and every vendor adjusted their pricing structure accordingly.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:21PM (#40518739)
This is happening with a lot of companies that don't really have to care about "startup value"; they're tiny (sometimes even one-person) shops that aren't likely to ever go public, be bought for millions, or so on. I think you've got the cause and effect reversed for a lot of these -- the App Store pricing model has driven the price people expect to pay for apps down substantially, which made the "buy outright and then buy a new version in a couple years, at a discount, if it appeals to you" model much harder to sustain. I don't love subscriptions for apps that don't have a server-side component, but I get it.

(The example of the Pomodoro app with the subscription is pretty dubious, though.)

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by runako on Thursday May 30, 2024 @03:10PM (#40527512)
> Why go that far back?

Because this is the era before really any major software was sold by subscription. Even 2008 was a hybrid era where some Web software was already subscription-based. Consumer behavior had already started to shift by 2008.

> for year apps were sold for a flat one-time fee.

This model also makes a lot of assumptions about where user data is stored and who is paying for that storage. Many apps have non-trivial backend requirements to support very normal use cases like "I also would like to access this from a Web browser sometimes." Those requirements cost money on an ongoing basis. One-time purchases are not a good fit for this either. We do not see many one-time purchases of Web software; many mobile apps are essentially parts of a larger whole that includes other modes of access to underlying services.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by cooper_ganglia on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:45PM (#40517415)
You could almost use this argument to convince me for a complex software like the Adobe products that is constantly getting new, major updates, but for a Pomodoro app? Honestly, $1 seems reasonable.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by runako on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:59PM (#40517541)
I should have been clearer. Apps from big publishers were more expensive than the indies in the 1980s. And indie shops that were charging ~$40 ($100 in 2024 dollars) for their titles. This is a direct comparison to the type of pomodoro app mentioned in the upthread comment.

The thing is, all software constantly needs new updates. If not platform-driven, then security, bug fixes, etc.

The more niche (like a pomodoro app), the fewer users over which to amortize the dev costs. A lifetime fee of $1, sold to a huge audience of 100k paid users, will pay for ~1 year of a single dev in the US, perhaps 2-3 years of a developer in a low-cost country. And then where does the money come from for updates in year 4 and beyond?

Subscription payments recognize the realities that a) development never ends for most apps that are in use and b) developers are not going to be free in the future just because the publisher only charged once.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by FireBeyond on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:15PM (#40518235)
> A lifetime fee of $1, sold to a huge audience of 100k paid users, will pay for ~1 year of a single dev in the US, perhaps 2-3 years of a developer in a low-cost country. And then where does the money come from for updates in year 4 and beyond?

I challenge you to demonstrate the Pomodoro app that has a full time dev effort for a year, and then requires anything more than piecemeal bug fixes or maybe a recompile in that four years of support...

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by eropple on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:03PM (#40518623)
That application is also probably not selling 100,000 units, so adjust your expectations downward accordingly.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by rexf on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:29AM (#40524882)
Apple Watch app, widgets, Live Activities, new phone sizes... there are always things Apple wants you to add over time. Do you want meaningful updates or abandoned software? It doesn't take a full time job, but it's significantly more than $1 per install
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by runako on Thursday May 30, 2024 @03:04PM (#40527455)
Let me put it a different way.

You have already been paid everything you will ever get paid for work you did in 2021. Next year, I want you to do an unpredictable amount of work to support the 2025 iOS. How much will you charge me? Where will I get the money to pay you? Why would I spend it on this instead of something else where I might see a return?

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by IIsi50MHz on Tuesday June 04, 2024 @02:17PM (#40577384)
> Apps from big publishers were more expensive than the indies in the 1980s. And indie shops that were charging ~$40 ($100 in 2024 dollars) for their titles.

Similarly, in the 1990s, things like Myst and Sim City 2000 were $40 each. Shareware at the time (mostly indie) were usually $20 or less; often $5, and sometimes fun/silly things like postcardware or beerware.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by CodeWriter23 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @11:00PM (#40519680)
Adobe was $600 per update. Per app.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Breza on Friday May 31, 2024 @01:50PM (#40538203)
Apps at the scale of what GP describes were often freeware with no ads or tracking back in the day. I remember when PC Magazine would send a CD-ROM full of utilities like that with the latest issue (not strictly free but I was already subscribing). Or when I would search download.com for the specific tool I needed. I even made a free tool for timing debate tournaments in high school, which was similarly complex to the timer you need to subscribe to in the app store.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by 1123581321 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:45PM (#40517410)
That doesn't seem odd to me. Pomodoro/focus apps are a category where people start casual, but end up developing very specific desires that narrow their options. Someone catering to that can charge a bit.

Whether it's ethical for developers to cater to that kind of helpless behavior is another question.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by gdubs on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:08PM (#40517609)
People are so used to the zero interest rate period of tech that everyone expects the pricing model of VC backed startups that can burn money forever and maybe figure out a business model at some point.

Software costs time and money. People complain that they don't want the same uninspired corporate created junk – and then they balk at paying indie developers a reasonable amount for apps.

So much work goes into this stuff! It's so tempting for indie devs to just take the high paying job, and then congrats – no more unique and interesting apps like this.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ricardobeat on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:33PM (#40517853)
I’m not sure what your point was. Is this in defense or against IaP?

Most people don’t balk at paying fair prices for an app, but the definition has drifted so far that €7/month (€84/year) is described as “fair” for a simple timer, and that is plain absurd.

Halide goes for €69 one-time purchase, or €12,50/year. For professional software that is really well designed and is actually kept up to date. This should be the benchmark.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Breza on Friday May 31, 2024 @01:56PM (#40538299)
I totally agree with you. I don't mind paying for creative devs to build awesome software. I do mind cash grabs. Mobile gaming is the most frustrating category. It's sad that pay-once-no-ads games like Crashlands and 80 Days are the exception. Enterprise software is a close second, but I'm not paying those bills out of my own pocket.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sitkack on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:00PM (#40518108)
What to ZIRPs have to do with Pomodoro subscriptions?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by spiderice on Thursday May 30, 2024 @02:02AM (#40520567)
> I can't believe I have to pay for that in the first place

> People are greedy af

I hope the irony of these two statements isn't lost on you

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by patrickcorrigan on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:57AM (#40524547)
I know right! I run a freemium B2C app and I get users telling me this all the time. It's so ridiculous. No one is forcing anyone to use the software. Go write your own version and give it away for free.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ErigmolCt on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:09AM (#40523922)
Agree, it's frustrating to see simple apps like this requiring a subscription model.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by tekeous on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:21PM (#40515798)
That’s what I said about Halide, before they moved it to a subscription model.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ezfe on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:25PM (#40515850)
Only for new features right?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by wilsonnb3 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:24PM (#40518321)
Yeah and you can still buy it for a one time $60 purchase if you want.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Jeremy0 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:42PM (#40517374)
You must be confusing Halide with Filmic Pro.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by prawn on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @10:55PM (#40519656)
I think they're talking about this, from Halide's page in the App Store:

In-App Purchases Yearly $11.99 Monthly $2.99 One Time Purchase $59.99

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by klysm on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:47PM (#40516124)
It’s so much harder to sustain the business though. Obviously it’s better for the consumer, but way harder to run
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ertgbnm on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @02:42PM (#40515293)
I give it 2 years before they have regressed to a subscription model.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by tonetegeatinst on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:14PM (#40515714)
Personally, even if I don't personally purchase this, I hope your wrong because I am strongly against subscriptions in most cases.

I see cases where it makes sense...but I also see the need for development to get paid their salery, and once you have reached all the users you can....their is no new user growth....and if your just selling based off a one time fee then that means you got very little income except the random guy who might donate, but a company shouldn't rely on donations to keep products alive.

If the thing needs updates or changes regularly say once very 6 months....due to changes in standard or just keeping things updated....this stuff costs money to keep developers paid.

My crude C program I wrote that converts an input between celcius or Fahrenheit is not really going to change. Unless I want to also support data inputs other than floating point numbers, I don't need to update or modify anything. But other stuff is more complex and might change due to standards, advancements, and the needs of the users.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by earthnail on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:47PM (#40516852)
The real problem is that people are afraid of paying high one time prices. Subscriptions allow you to lower your prices, which lowers the barrier of entry.

On iOS, it gets even worse as there never were high prices to begin with. Which means that the OTP model was never very sustainable.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by mewpmewp2 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @05:30PM (#40517251)
I don't understand what people have against subscriptions.

To me that's the fairest. First, it incentives them to make a good product, and keep developing it as opposed to just throwing it out there and then not updating.

And secondly it's also fair for the customer. If I don't find something useful I might stop using it after a week, but I paid the full price, same as if I found it useful for years.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by abdullahkhalids on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @07:18PM (#40518263)
What do, say, furniture stores do when they "run out of users"?

> If the thing needs updates or changes regularly say once very 6 months....due to changes in standard or just keeping things updated....this stuff costs money to keep developers paid.

The problem is of course, that the industry has settled into a nash equilibrium of constantly changing things, so regular people have to continuously update software, as a way to charge rents, on top of whatever productive improvements they provide.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by zuminator on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @08:40PM (#40518863)
Sofas don't need constant bug fixes; they don't inexplicably stop working when someone upgrades their apartment with a new TV. Also, the up-front cost of a piece of furniture is a couple of orders magnitude higher than most apps, which help keeps the retailer in the black until it's time for the customer to buy another, similarly high priced item.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by dghlsakjg on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:06PM (#40515621)
They have been around successfully selling apps with this business model for a lot longer than 2 years, why do you think they plan on changing it?
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by Kerrick on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:16PM (#40515733)
FiLMiC Pro, another pro camera app for iPhone, also existed for years [0] and sold with the one-time-purchase business model. They're now a subscription [1] and owned by Bending Spoons / Evernote. (Plus, more bad news [2]...)

[0]: http://web.archive.org/web/20111130073123/http://www.filmicp...

[1]: https://www.cined.com/filmic-pro-is-joining-forces-with-bend...

[2]: https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/3/23986187/filmic-staff-lai...

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by dghlsakjg on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:38PM (#40516016)
That kind of proves that one time sales can be a successful business model, doesn't it?

They were a successful business employing 23 people after more than a decade on the one time sales model!

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by bowsamic on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:59PM (#40516957)
No one said it’s not possible to be successful with it
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by colechristensen on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:16PM (#40515742)
What happens is you run out of new people to sell your niche app to (or hit a long rather thin tail) while continuing to provide updates for your existing userbase. So you either have to release arbitrary new versions from time to time leaving the old ones neglected and eventually unsupported (or with the overhead of supporting several versions) or you switch to a subscription model.

It's happened with so many businesses.

Maybe the solution here is to stop supporting new phones with old versions. So your app works forever but if you upgrade your phone you have to buy the software again. It's hard to find what feels fair.

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by volleygman180 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:39PM (#40516031)
Subscription fatigue is very real today, but to your point, as a business you can't provide eternal updates (work) for free.

In the old days, you'd buy a new version of Mac or Windows or any software that you run on it (Office, Parallels, etc.) when you wanted the new features each year.

I think Apple's App Store has a lot to do with why everything is now subscription-based. They used to offer developers a smaller Apple-commission (15%) for subscription sales instead of the typical 30% for in-app purchase sales and paid-apps.

This was great for businesses, but in my opinion, only service businesses should be subscriptions - this transition would help reduce subscription fatigue. Normal software should mostly go back to just issuing new versions each year (or whatever frequency), so that consumers re-frame the purchase cycle to something that feels more reasonable again.

In order for this to occur, however, Apple may need to adjust the App Store algorithms. If you were to launch a new app (ex. "Kino v6"), you'd start all over again from day 1 with 0 app ratings and reviews, and not rank well on any keywords nor in the top apps charts.

Some apps simply rename their app with each new version, but that introduces similar complexities, especially for users who already paid & downloaded the previous "version". So in a big way, the App Store de-incentivizes any kind of transition away from a subscription-based business model.

The "new versions" business model vs. subscription may be similar cost to consumer (it wouldn't support monthly users), but it would allow consumers to only update when their ready and could continue using an old app version (especially on older devices) as long as they'd like. If a customer really likes the software, they'd likely buy the new version to access new features & device support before too long anyhow

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by sunnybeetroot on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:04PM (#40516354)
What do you mean used to take 15% commission, that has never stopped since the small business plan became available.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by volleygman180 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:24AM (#40523424)
I mean that initially the 15% commission was only for subscription sales. Then more recently, Apple added the small business program which gave 15% commission for any sales (not only subscriptions), at least for smaller companies
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by RajT88 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @04:58PM (#40516950)
> Normal software should mostly go back to just issuing new versions each year (or whatever frequency), so that consumers re-frame the purchase cycle to something that feels more reasonable again.

One way which feels fair that I have seen companies do is provide "Maintenance".

Premium paid support offerings which also includes upgrades to any versions released during your contract duration. It's enterprisey, and maybe weird for a camera app (how much support could you possibly really need?).

Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by KoftaBob on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @06:52PM (#40518030)
What about releasing new features as in-app purchases? This way you can make money from existing users too.
Re:Kino: Pro Video Camera by ashton314 on Wednesday May 29, 2024 @03:03PM (#40515587)
Their other apps are much older than 2 years and still have a buy-once model. This company has a good track record. (There is a subscription for some long-running services if I'm not mistaken.)