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Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by tovej on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @09:13AM (#40222717)
I want to ask, out of interest, and completely genuinely, which genocide?

I myself feel that calling this a genocide is warranted, it fits the UN definition, Israels actions have been consistent with this definition for several decades. They do not allow Palestinians to return to their land, they do not give them peace to live on their inidgenous land, the ones that have a right to live on Israeli land have second rate citizenships without political rights, the ones living in the Palestinian territories have no legal rights whatsoever. They are being bombed and imprisoned, and starved to death. Israel has been destroying sources of fresh water, schools, hospitals, universities. Israel's current government has called them animals, called for their total annihilation, and is killing civilians to "suspected Hamas operatives" at a collateral rate of like 10 to 1 according to their own records. (I don't remember the exact number, I just remember it was shocking, I can look it up later).

And, the ICJ has said that it is likely a genocide, before their final ruling they can't obviously come out and state that it is one 100%, but from a court, this is pretty much the strongest wording they can use.

Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by gataca on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @09:18AM (#40222772)
The ICJ did no such thing. Here is the president of the ICJ clarifying this misreporting: https://x.com/UKLFI/status/1785305902276301019
Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by peteradio on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @09:44AM (#40223132)
Good thing the lawyer brigade is helping Israel stay just just just barely below the technical definition of a genocide. Google can rest easy knowing til this date one apparent body of justice has blessed the actions as not technically genocide. Certainly the employees should continue to keep their heads down and keep calm because so far its not technically genocide. Judgements based on evidence dated til Dec. 2023, new evidence dating prior could revise genocidal status

- The above is a satire. But come on what are we arguing about?

Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by gataca on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @10:26AM (#40223717)
We are arguing about the meaning of words, especially words thrown around as libels to try and delegitimize justified self defense.

I'm sorry if the facts don't agree with your desires for something to be true. War is terrible and civilians die in all wars, especially those in urban areas where one party tunnels underneath civilian infrastructure to protect themselves while leaving civilians exposed to fire.

Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by peteradio on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @10:32AM (#40223794)
I'm not arguing about the current facts, facts change and I think employees shouldn't be timid when they are feeling uncomfortable about the fruits of their labor. Whether or not this is technically genocide is hilariously off-topic for the thread at large and serves to create a narrative that one's actions must be classified as genocide to reach the level of justified employee outcry. You obviously are free to quibble about what is or is not genocide and I'm free to ridicule it with satire.
Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by tovej on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @01:44PM (#40226643)
It is not libel to say that the ICJ's statement is a strong indication that a genocide is ongoing. What Joan Donoghue says is that, technically, there is no ruling on the "plausibility of genocide claims". Which is a technical legal claim separate from the sentiment in the ruling. Yes, the ICJ has not made a ruling on the plausibility because the legal process has not come far enough to make such a ruling.

This does not mean that the ruling does not indicate that the court thinks a genocide is occurring.

If you simply look at the definition of a genocide and the facts on the ground, you should quite easily come to the conclusion that this is a genocide and it should end -- and that Palestinians should have legal rights to live on their indigenous land and have human rights. This is not a radical position in my mind, this should be the status quo of a person with a normative moral compass.

Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by lagichikool on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @03:31PM (#40228188)
"It is not libel to say that the ICJ's statement is a strong indication that a genocide is ongoing"

"This does not mean that the ruling does not indicate that the court thinks a genocide is occurring."

You've seen the video and are continuing to disagree with what the ICJ president herself has explicitly said. If you want to claim that Israel is committing genocide, you're free to do so, but don't continue to lie to yourself or others about what the ICJ has said now that you have been corrected.

"If you simply look at the definition of a genocide and the facts on the ground, you should quite easily come to the conclusion that this is a genocide..."

If you simply look at Israel government's military capabilities and the facts on the ground, should quite easily come to the conclusion that genocide is not the goal.

The Israel government's intention is clearly to kill enemy soldiers, even if it means killing civilians in the process. This is the same attitude that most countries have adopted in times of war.

The Allies did horrendously unethical things (like fire bombing millions of civilians) during WW2 but even that wasn't genocide.

Claiming that Israel's government is committing war crimes is a much more reasonable argument. It may not be true but it's not obviously false, the way the genocide claim is.

Ask yourself what Israel would do if every member of Hamas was willing to march out to a battlefield and meet them head-to-head in a large scale battle. Would Israel keep sending bombs at houses or would they target that battlefield?

Most people could be convinced that the right-wing Israel government is being unnecessarily brutal and hamfisted in their response to the Oct 7 attacks. If the goal was to convince more people to pressure Israel, that would be possible.

But the insistence upon specific word use ("genocide") is a transparent attempt at signalling in-group and out-group status. This has been a common pattern among political extremists for a long time. There's always some kind of rationalization about why its important but it's never the real reason.

Being divisive is the point.

Just like Trump's adherents signal their in-group status by pretending the 2020 Election was "stolen" so do the extreme left's adherents signal their in-group status by claiming Israel is committing a "genocide".

In both cases, the goal is not to actually convince people of something that is obviously false. The purpose is to have a loyalty test that can be used to differentiate friend and foe.

Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by bigbluedots on Thursday May 02, 2024 @04:26AM (#40233927)
A war is usually something that has two sides fighting it.
Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by siva7 on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @09:23AM (#40222832)
I'd rather not open this sensitive topic, all i will say is that the genocide i've been a survivor of was handled and ruled by the ICJ as a genocide a long time ago.
Re:Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file... by dmitrygr on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @05:53PM (#40229997)
> it fits the UN definition

Flagged.

ICJ literally said it does NOT

https://twitter.com/UKLFI/status/1785305902276301019