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Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by jmward01 on Monday April 29, 2024 @03:40PM (#40203096)
The core issue is transparency. I don't want to see a 'privacy policy', I want to see who a company has sold/given my information to and what limitations that sale has. The concept is simple. If you collect anything about me and allow some other entity access, you tell me about it/make it easy for me to see -and- block. Most of this abuse of personal data would go away if people knew it was going on.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by idatum on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:27PM (#40203725)
Everything should be opt-in. Burden should be on them, something like, "We want to share your data and if you agree here are the benefits to you."
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by ethbr1 on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:12PM (#40204191)
That's something I think the EU got right -- being hard-nosed about true tracking consent requiring a user to receive the same outcome regardless of their choice.

Anything shy is begging companies to dark-engineer patterns around obtaining it.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by nox101 on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:55PM (#40204586)
The EU didn't get this right - or else they aren't enforcing it. I'm in the EU right now and the crap I see is a popup "We respect your privacy. Us and 352 (not an exaggeration!) of our partners are collecting data on you. Approve or Details?" Pick details and you can spend your time going through the partners

https://pasteboard.co/rrL2bpmiE6Zq.png

And most you can't reject

Even more hilarious. pageboard itself said 847 partners!

https://pasteboard.co/XQHhPzTw42Pv.png

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by immibis on Monday April 29, 2024 @07:23PM (#40205379)
This is mostly unenforced, as it WAS ruled that it must be as easy to reject as to accept. However, they're going after "consent to ads or buy a subscription" which I thought was a pretty fair compromise business model.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by Maarten88 on Monday April 29, 2024 @07:41PM (#40205543)
I'm generally okay with Ads, that is fair. But I'm not okay with tracking, consolidating data about me from different sources, analyzing it and selling that. It is too hard to understand how that may impact me and others.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by ethbr1 on Monday April 29, 2024 @09:26PM (#40206298)
Imho, the problem with "consent to ads or buy a subscription" is that it becomes the new CableCARD [0].

I.e. all companies really want to be in the business of tracking customers, because they can repackage derivative products and increase their revenue.

So the "subscription" option ends up experiencing a lack of support, mysterious technical issues, underinvestment, etc.

End result, customers don't choose it, which businesses use to lobby for further eroding mandates.

You can't force a company to provide and support a product they don't want to. You can force them to turn one off.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by hdevarajan on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @11:40AM (#40212264)
I don’t think the Eu got it right; crucially they missed requiring these choice points to be automatedly navigable for users (eg “.. and if you must publish the metadata representing the choice architecture this way, use these standard keywords to present options, and must allow users to use automation to make their selection “)

The first reg this happens in will I think make billions the world over realize this is what the template of all opt-in online regulation has to be and will hopefully change the world.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by ethbr1 on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @02:50PM (#40214709)
That's a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

If you boil the lobster all at once, the huge ad industry will ensure such regulation never passes.

If you gradually increase regulation, then it stands a change of actually passing, and eventually accomplishes the same goal (even if over a longer timeframe).

Getting everyone to agree that a mandatory, regulated prompt is required is step 1.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by notfed on Monday April 29, 2024 @06:49PM (#40205060)
Why would anyone opt-in to having their location sold? Some things should just be banned.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by beardedetim on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @11:52AM (#40212442)
For the right price, I'd sell every bit of data I produce!
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by notfed on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @06:54PM (#40217460)
Yeah, if the profit comes back to me, totally different situation :)
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by calvinmorrison on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:17PM (#40204241)
if this is the case, it really needs to MATERIALLY benefit you. My friend uses all the rewards apps and really uses credit card points, programmes, etc, and it does benefit them.

Me? I just use cash everywhere and now the guy at harbor freight knows I'm the guy who says 'I dont have a cell phone number'.

Contracts you know, they need to benefit both sides.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by grobbyy on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:31PM (#40204368)
I have mixed feelings about opt in. A single accidental click on a web site and GDPR has failed to protect the user. Dark patterns allow that to be gamed. And it complicates legitimate uses.

I'd like auditable data. I should have an easy way to discover everyone with my data (including things like IP logs), see how it's used (at the level of source), and have it destroyed.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by krustyburger on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:01PM (#40204096)
“We want to share your data and if you agree here are the benefits to our shareholders."
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by paledot on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @08:30PM (#40218161)
That's the current model, except "the benefits to you" are you get a telephone. Don't like it, go to the one other phone company that has an identical "agreement".

Opt-in doesn't fix anything. Only by making these practices illegal (and aggressively enforcing the law) can this be stopped.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by techdmn on Monday April 29, 2024 @03:55PM (#40203342)
AND if people had viable alternatives. (Sorry, I see now that you mentioned blocking, which would also work.)
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by sofixa on Monday April 29, 2024 @03:55PM (#40203335)
> Most of this abuse of personal data would go away if people knew it was going on.

GDPR proves this wrong. Most people click OK/accept even in front of relatively clear information (to be fair sometimes the options are "accept for you to be tracked and shared with 'our partners' or pay a subscription/fee", which is an easy choice for many.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by spinningD20 on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:12PM (#40203547)
Yet if the business model / customer's _existing_ service agreement is changed, the temperature of the water that the frog is in just went up a little bit, so folks continue using it, which is what often happens as well.

"well, I'm not sure if they're going to start collecting or using my data, because I don't actually really KNOW that or the extent of everything, just an email from them with a vague update to an equally vague privacy policy that I apparently implicitly agree to if I don't discontinue using their service."

Just like a manufacturer/seller on say, amazon shouldn't be able to revise their product with cheaper quality under the same model number (and yet it happens all the time), changes to the agreement of a service should be treated as a new service.

Whatever the solution, it should be a big enough deal that it cannot be implicitly agreed to, and clear enough language (maybe vetted by a third party review of the agreement) to communicate to all users, what is at stake and how, to which third parties, etc.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by hocuspocus on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:29PM (#40203747)
In this very case, the GDPR is scary enough that European carriers make sure to anonymize and aggregate analytics they sell to third parties. Even if you click OK, a data leak would be pretty harmless and wouldn't identify you personally.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by sroussey on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:13PM (#40204199)
Location data that includes your home in the suburbs is pretty identifiable.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by hocuspocus on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:49PM (#40204529)
Carrier position accuracy is pretty shit in low density areas, you aggregate (e.g. per H3 tile), apply scaling (no operator has 100% market share) and K-anonymity.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by 38 on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:22PM (#40203664)
This is misleading. The OK is almost universally made easier to click through dark patterns, with the "reject" being hidden or taking more clicks
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by cogman10 on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:29PM (#40203745)
Yup. At least 2 clicks and you have to process what you are clicking to understand. I've seen more than a few sites where it's

"Ok" then "Customize" followed by a bunch of checkboxes to disable cookies while the "accept all button" is where typically "OK" would be and the "reject all" is often labeled something else that isn't clear.

This is also not often remembered on future visits so you end up doing this dance every time you visit that site.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by ikiris on Monday April 29, 2024 @06:44PM (#40205009)
And those are illegal under gdpr, and enforcement is slow but happening. Whats your point?
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by onli on Monday April 29, 2024 @05:09PM (#40204161)
Many people click no whenever there is not a manipulated choice. See https://www.cnil.fr/en/evolution-practices-web-regarding-coo...

"Most" may be correct, but given how annoying those banners are I would not read too much into that.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by keybored on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @09:39AM (#40223061)
When presented with 50 prompts throughout the day, 95% of which makes clicking OK easier than clicking decline, most people (allegedly) click OK.

What an easy choice to be nagged at every new website.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by barbariangrunge on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:57PM (#40204050)
The core issue isn’t transparency. It’s surveillance and powerlessness
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by gmd63 on Monday April 29, 2024 @06:46PM (#40205030)
I would extend this to include companies like Facebook that study your data to derive deeper insights about you. I want to be entitled to every conclusion they reach about me from my own data, so I can correct whatever assumptions they have about me and possibly learn more about myself.
Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by m463 on Monday April 29, 2024 @08:05PM (#40205756)
I read somewhere if you call up a towing company, the wireless carrier will provide them your location.

they don't even say "your call^H^H^H^Hlocation will be recorded for quality purposes"

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by theptip on Monday April 29, 2024 @08:48PM (#40206082)
Transparency is good, but I think it’s also important to impose contractual liability and fines too. GDPR has a good model here; a data processor must list all of their sub-processors, AND have contracts with each that let them enforce transitively your data deletion rights.

This guards against the case where a processor transparently updates their ToS to share your data with someone you do not consent to.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by ranger_danger on Monday April 29, 2024 @09:09PM (#40206214)
> I want to see

They can still just lie though.

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by throw10920 on Monday April 29, 2024 @10:40PM (#40206708)
> I want to see who a company has sold/given my information to and what limitations that sale has

To expand on this more - I feel like laws requiring companies to keep a "custody chain" of personal data at every transfer step would be relatively un-controversial. Sure, I'd rather do away with personal data being able to be bought and sold entirely, but an easy first step is "massive fines for any company that doesn't carefully track exactly which entity touched the user's data".

Re:FCC fines largest wireless carriers for sharing location ... by cameldrv on Monday April 29, 2024 @11:41PM (#40206996)
I just don't want 'em to do it. I expect companies I have a paying business relationship with to not report on my private comings and goings, especially not to bounty hunters and other shady characters. Back in the day if you did something like this, you would be run out of town on a rail, but unfortunately we've allowed mobile phone companies and a lot of others to get such a large national market share that there is no recourse.