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Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by mdda on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:07PM (#4006085)
The airlines actually save money by preventing smoking : The air in the cabins needs to be recycled less often. The flip side, though, is that air-bourne diseases are more prevalent on flights now, since the air is rebreathed more often before filtering. Source : Qi series 1 (BBC UK).
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by gaius on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:16AM (#4006633)
Uhh, you know QI is a comedy show, right?

Anyway, it's not true. Air in the cabin is bled off the engines, from the early stage of the compressor, then pressurized and heated. It's not one cabinful of air that was in it from the ground endlessly recirculated.

QI also told the world that the Internet uses GPS to route packets (tho' some devices may use GPS for its clock signal, packets don't know geographically where they are).

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @05:07AM (#4006982)
It's a comedy show, but that doesn't mean they don't take facts seriously. As I said in another comment further down, QI is:

a show with a team of good researchers, they can on occasion be wrong (and have corrected themselves for mistakes in previous shows in the past), but they won't put a fact into a show without getting good sources for it

So while they may be wrong in this instance, the fact that they are a comedy show isn't reason enough to think so.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:02AM (#4006214)
How exactly do they save money by not recycling air?

You don't have to pay for air during flight - it comes from the outside air and is free, it's not canisters or something.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by cameldrv on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:21AM (#4006256)
You do have to pay for air if you care what pressure it is at. Non-Sherpas will demand a refund of their ticket price if provided air at ambient pressure at 35000 ft.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by raverbashing on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @07:47AM (#4007346)
Actually the issue of pressure is much more complicated

Yes, you can increase the pressure. But then your flying tube in a low pressure environment may explode

Or it'll suffer a bigger expansion/contraction with every cycle and hence less cycles or metal fatigue and failure at 37000feet (passenger won't ask for a refund as they will be unable to do)

So the "cabin altitude" is really a balance between mechanical resistance and people not passing out (though this may be a good idea with some passengers)

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @01:51AM (#4006434)
Lets do the math then: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=785+millibars+*+876+cub...

Result: Each air change costs around .62 of a gallon of gas (assuming perfect efficiency). Or around $2.50 - let's call it $10 to account for inefficiency. In contrast it costs around $10,000 per hour (not including salary) to fly a large plane.

Saying they don't circulate air to save money is ridiculous.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by hasker on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:26AM (#4006524)
Some would say the same thing about removing in-flight beverage service or tossing blankets, pillows, and airline magazines to save weights, yet airlines do it. I think it is equally ridiculous to care about such costs, especially at the cost of focusing management away from the top line, but using logic to suggest it does not happen may not get you far in this case.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by Arelius on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:36PM (#4008578)
Is it to save weight, or to save other costs around maintaining blankets and pillows?
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by megablast on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:39AM (#4006693)
Some airlines make just over $100 per flight. Not per person per flight, PER FLIGHT. They are looking for every saving they can get.

You can work this out my looking at an an airlines profits, and how many flights they did a year.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by encoderer on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:17PM (#4009075)
Life is complicated. So are airlines.

In this case, airlines are a business designed not to have runaway profit. The unions are very powerful. They know how much money the airline is making a demand large percentages of it. They leave a nominal profit for key investors but shareholders as a whole are regularly left out. In fact, if you look at the entire history of commercial flight, the industry is break-even.

That's not a fluke. If costs were higher, unions would get a smaller cut. If costs were lower, unions would take more.

Philip Greenspun has some great writing on this, as well as the old, shortlived but fantastic Enplaned blog.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by tb on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:47PM (#4011079)
You are referring, of course, to this excellent (and somewhat frightening) article: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by sopooneo on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:49PM (#4011447)
There was an episode of the podcast Planet Money where they claimed that the American Airline industry has, as a whole, actually lost money over the course of its existence. As in, overall, net financial loss.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @04:31AM (#4006892)
Maybe for small regional flights. My numbers where for huge 400-500 passenger planes.

By my calculations a smaller 70 passenger plane would use around 1/5 the energy per air change, and they typically fly for only an hour or two. So for an air change every half an hour it would cost them around $4 per flight (and that's assuming low efficiency). So $100 profit is still possible (although I have to say that that's amazing low, but I'll take your word for it).

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by rshlo on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:53AM (#4006751)
I've heard it has something to do with the air filters. Less smoking = less clogging of the filters = less air filters replacement = more money to airlines. Just heard that, don't know if it's true.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by oneeyed on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @06:41AM (#4007189)
That's what I've been told by SNCF (the French national railroad company) officers when they forbad to smoke in trains.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:46PM (#4006180)
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @05:05AM (#4006976)
Setting aside the fact that this source is a random person blogging and quoting a pilot (his job is flying, not dealing with air-con), the fact that airplane air "isn't as disgusting as you think" doesn't mean it isn't more disgusting now than it was when smoking was allowed.

I don't have a source and am too lazy to find one, but it was stated on QI which is a show with a team of good researchers, they can on occasion be wrong (and have corrected themselves for mistakes in previous shows in the past), but they won't put a fact into a show without getting good sources for it, so if they say that air gets recycled less now than when smoking was allowed, I believe them.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:17AM (#4007634)
That's not what you claimed - you claimed that it was a) recirculated less and as a direct result b) more airborne germs are prevalent and c) cost is saved.

Sorry - it's my fault for not giving more background on Mr. Smith - Patrick Smith has been a Delta Air Lines pilot for about 10 years, written two books on airlines, before that flying cargo, and I've met him more than once, so I'll trust him and the other pilots I've met when they tell me how their airplanes work.

Here's more of his articles on the subject: http://www.salon.com/2009/09/25/askthepilot335/ http://www.askthepilot.com/questions-and-answers/#cX-q9

and another article here: http://airlinesafety.com/articles/FSFCabinAir.htm

I'll allow that it's certainly possible that manufacturers have tweaked the circulation post-smoking, but even if so, it wasn't done with some nefarious intent or to the detriment of passengers. The air we breathe (as I'm about to get on a flight) is incredibly clean, cleaner than in my office.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:22AM (#4007648)
That's not what I claimed because I didn't claim anything at all.

Your sources are all (I think?) about the fact that the way they deal with air is good, and you may well be right that it's cleaner than in your office. That doesn't mean that it's not less clean than when smoking was allowed - it may well be that in order to get rid of the smell of smoke they needed to clean the air way more than technically necessary, and that therefore after the smoking ban it could be lowered without being "some nefarious intent".

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by aidenn0 on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @01:01PM (#4008692)
Except the recirculation systems started well before the smoking ban...
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:06AM (#4008159)
I'n sorry, you're right. I confused you with the OP, please accept my apology.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by gnaffle on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:41AM (#4008355)
From the transcript (http://sites.google.com/site/qitranscripts/transcripts/1x10) - just the tidbit about 6% savings in fuel cost just by reducing airflow sounds completely implausible:

"Stephen Well, the question is . . . It was almost certainly a bad idea, erm . . . It was a lousy idea, in fact, 'cause when smoking was allowed, the cabin air was completely replaced with fresh air every three minutes, and now, the airlines save money . . . they save up to 6% of their fuel bills by using a mixture of fresh and recycled air--

Julia And SARS.

Peter Ohh.

Stephen --yeah . . . using under half the amount of fresh air needed for comfort; increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the cabin; causing dizziness, and nausea, and allowing viruses to thrive. Passengers think that, because they can't smell smoke, the air is fresher. This is not so. Apart from anything else, it has dramatically increased the number of air rage incidents. One of the earliest reported incidents of air rage involved a passenger in first class, probably trying to take his mind, erm, off cigarettes, by drinking too much, and he was refused another drink, and so he decided to lodge his displeasure, and shat on top of the food trolley. "

While Patrick Smith may not be an air conditioning expert, as a pilot he's required to know how the AC systems work and how to operate them, and if there was a widespread modification to AC systems or pilot procedures after the smoking ban, I'd expect him to know about it and mention it in the article.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by Symmetry on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:06PM (#4009020)
An interesting book I read a while ago on health myths had a very good debunking of that urban legend: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YD69WM/ref=kinw_myk_ro_...