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Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by kgermino on Monday May 21, 2012 @10:23PM (#4005983)
It seems to be down now.

Here's the text if it continues to not work:

I’ve been lucky enough to have the chance to fly a lot over the past year or so. Working with Stephen Foskett and the rest of the Tech Field Day crew means that I’ve been to California almost every month. That’s a lot of flying.

One of the things that I’ve noticed on my flights is that they don’t want you to smoke. You actually used to be able to smoke on planes, which seems weird now that you can’t even smoke outide.

I’m not a smoker, so it doesn’t bother me. (As an adorable aside, when I was five years old, I literally glued hand-made no-smoking signs to the walls of my grandparents’ house. They were less than amused.) But the occasional legacy arm-rest with an ashtray harkens back to days of yore when every Joe Cool enjoyed the wonders of aviation while kicking back with a flights as smooth as a Laramie cigarette. He probably got a full meal as part of his ticket, too, the jerk.

Then the bleeding-heart liberals attacked in 1988, complaining of their “filthy air” and their “lung cancer”. The FAA banned smoking on flights less than 2 hours, presumably because the pilots were getting nic-fits after longer than that.

This was, of course, the thin end of the wedge. In 2000, the FAA banned smoking on commercial planes altogether. Talk about a bunch of buzz-kills.

So now we’re flying without cigarettes, and they are not kidding around about this whole “no smoking” thing…all you have to do is open your eyes to see that they don’t want you smoking:

That light is never turned off. I have actually seen a few planes which were new enough that instead of a no-smoking sign say “Please turn off electronic devices”, under the assumption that everyone is already well-trained enough to not smoke, but those are comparatively rare. Nope, it’s mostly the “no smoking signs”. But in case you didn’t look up, here’s the safety information sheet on the airplane. See if you can count the number of “No Smoking” warnings:

And on top of this, there’s a smoke detector in the bathroom (along with a heavy fine for disabling the smoke detector, too!)

No, planes are pretty much set up for not-smoking. Heck, there’s even a “No Smoking” sign on the ashtray in the bathroom:

Wait, what? Yes, you read me right. You’ve probably even seen them yourself. In airplane bathrooms, there is an ashtray (complete with No Smoking sticker) for the people who smoke in the bathroom, even though they shouldn’t.

When I first started bringing this up to people, I encountered the same reaction again and again. People would say, “oh, it just costs too much to replace the door or take out the ashtray”. This is absolutely not the reason, though.

Allow me to quote from the Code of Federal Regulations for airworthiness:

Regardless of whether smoking is allowed in any other part of the airplane, lavatories must have self-contained, removable ashtrays located conspicuously on or near the entry side of each lavatory door, except that one ashtray may serve more than one lavatory door if the ashtray can be seen readily from the cabin side of each lavatory served.

The plane can not leave the terminal if the bathrooms don’t have ashtrays. They’re non-optional.

That’s an awfully strange stance to take for a vehicle with such a stringent “no smoking” policy, but it really does make a lot of sense. Back in 1973, a flight crashed and killed 123 people, and the reason for the crash was attributed to a cigarette that was improperly disposed of.

The FAA has decided that some people (despite the policies against smoking, the warning placards, the smoke detector, and the flight attendants) will smoke anyway, and when they do, there had better be a good place to put that cigarette butt.

There’s a lot of wisdom in a decision like that. I think that it’s a lesson that we can put to use in a lot of the things that we do. There’s a really interesting book on a similar topic, called Nudge.. The idea behind Nudge is that every design decision that you make, as an engineer, affects the way that people behave toward your creation, so you should tend toward design decisions that encourage positive behavior in users.

This is similar to the design consideration called affordance. If you’ve ever walked up to a door and pushed, then realized that the door was supposed to be pulled, even though it looked like it should have been pushed, then you’ve come up against someone who didn’t understand affordance.

Here’s a good image of handles which afford pushing or pulling by Yanko Design:

It’s a cross between form and function. We have “grippy” hands that open flat. We instinctively know how to use things like this because of how we are formed.

You don’t engineer your systems with the belief that none of your computers will ever break. That’s insane; you KNOW they’re going to break. So don’t assume that your users will never break the rules. Build in graceful failure as often as possible, whether you’re designing a user interface or a security policy.

Likewise, when you are designing your infrastructure (or security policies), keep in mind the idea of affordance, and nudge people into making the “right” decision each time. The cynical Hanlon’s Razor says

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be ascribed to stupidity

Instead of stupidity, maybe people are trying to push on the door that’s supposed to be pulled.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by kevinchen on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:06PM (#4006083)
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by calinet6 on Monday May 21, 2012 @10:29PM (#4006000)
Or, have a gist. With images. https://gist.github.com/2766143
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by mkopinsky on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:29PM (#4006149)
Or https://gist.github.com/2766323, including the final image as well
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by kgermino on Monday May 21, 2012 @10:34PM (#4006009)
Ah. Even better.

Thanks.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ricardobeat on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:03PM (#4006077)
CloudFlare caches seem to always fail when they are most needed.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by jgrahamc on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:11AM (#4008179)
I decided to investigate this comment to see if we (CloudFlare) actually had failed while this story was hot.

Bottom line is that the site is on CloudFlare, and during heavy load (probably from Hacker News) the site did go down or slowed a lot. Unfortunately, it's the real web server that died or went very slow and not anything in CloudFlare.

The server appears to still be having problems because if I browse to other pages on the site (e.g. http://www.standalone-sysadmin.com/blog/sysadmin-calendar/) you'll see that CloudFlare's "Always Online" is enabled and showing a cached version of the page. Here's a picture of what that looks like: http://i.imgur.com/QIeQF.png

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ewang1 on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @04:14PM (#4009726)
Is the site only partially cached in CloudFlare or something? Seems like with your "Always Online" feature, a dead server should trigger CloudFlare's "Always Online" feature and show a cached version for all the pages.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by damoncloudflare on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @08:11PM (#4010790)
We do not cache the entire site with Always Online. The Always Online feature will display a limited cache of the site's content.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by aubergene on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:20PM (#4009440)
Isn't this exactly what "always online" it supposed to prevent?
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by justinavery on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:48PM (#4011081)
It worked fine for me until I tried to post a comment, then I saw the caching online/offline issues from cloudflare.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by mdda on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:07PM (#4006085)
The airlines actually save money by preventing smoking : The air in the cabins needs to be recycled less often. The flip side, though, is that air-bourne diseases are more prevalent on flights now, since the air is rebreathed more often before filtering. Source : Qi series 1 (BBC UK).
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by gaius on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:16AM (#4006633)
Uhh, you know QI is a comedy show, right?

Anyway, it's not true. Air in the cabin is bled off the engines, from the early stage of the compressor, then pressurized and heated. It's not one cabinful of air that was in it from the ground endlessly recirculated.

QI also told the world that the Internet uses GPS to route packets (tho' some devices may use GPS for its clock signal, packets don't know geographically where they are).

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @05:07AM (#4006982)
It's a comedy show, but that doesn't mean they don't take facts seriously. As I said in another comment further down, QI is:

a show with a team of good researchers, they can on occasion be wrong (and have corrected themselves for mistakes in previous shows in the past), but they won't put a fact into a show without getting good sources for it

So while they may be wrong in this instance, the fact that they are a comedy show isn't reason enough to think so.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:02AM (#4006214)
How exactly do they save money by not recycling air?

You don't have to pay for air during flight - it comes from the outside air and is free, it's not canisters or something.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by cameldrv on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:21AM (#4006256)
You do have to pay for air if you care what pressure it is at. Non-Sherpas will demand a refund of their ticket price if provided air at ambient pressure at 35000 ft.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by raverbashing on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @07:47AM (#4007346)
Actually the issue of pressure is much more complicated

Yes, you can increase the pressure. But then your flying tube in a low pressure environment may explode

Or it'll suffer a bigger expansion/contraction with every cycle and hence less cycles or metal fatigue and failure at 37000feet (passenger won't ask for a refund as they will be unable to do)

So the "cabin altitude" is really a balance between mechanical resistance and people not passing out (though this may be a good idea with some passengers)

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @01:51AM (#4006434)
Lets do the math then: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=785+millibars+*+876+cub...

Result: Each air change costs around .62 of a gallon of gas (assuming perfect efficiency). Or around $2.50 - let's call it $10 to account for inefficiency. In contrast it costs around $10,000 per hour (not including salary) to fly a large plane.

Saying they don't circulate air to save money is ridiculous.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by hasker on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:26AM (#4006524)
Some would say the same thing about removing in-flight beverage service or tossing blankets, pillows, and airline magazines to save weights, yet airlines do it. I think it is equally ridiculous to care about such costs, especially at the cost of focusing management away from the top line, but using logic to suggest it does not happen may not get you far in this case.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by Arelius on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:36PM (#4008578)
Is it to save weight, or to save other costs around maintaining blankets and pillows?
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by megablast on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:39AM (#4006693)
Some airlines make just over $100 per flight. Not per person per flight, PER FLIGHT. They are looking for every saving they can get.

You can work this out my looking at an an airlines profits, and how many flights they did a year.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by encoderer on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:17PM (#4009075)
Life is complicated. So are airlines.

In this case, airlines are a business designed not to have runaway profit. The unions are very powerful. They know how much money the airline is making a demand large percentages of it. They leave a nominal profit for key investors but shareholders as a whole are regularly left out. In fact, if you look at the entire history of commercial flight, the industry is break-even.

That's not a fluke. If costs were higher, unions would get a smaller cut. If costs were lower, unions would take more.

Philip Greenspun has some great writing on this, as well as the old, shortlived but fantastic Enplaned blog.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by tb on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:47PM (#4011079)
You are referring, of course, to this excellent (and somewhat frightening) article: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by sopooneo on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:49PM (#4011447)
There was an episode of the podcast Planet Money where they claimed that the American Airline industry has, as a whole, actually lost money over the course of its existence. As in, overall, net financial loss.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by ars on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @04:31AM (#4006892)
Maybe for small regional flights. My numbers where for huge 400-500 passenger planes.

By my calculations a smaller 70 passenger plane would use around 1/5 the energy per air change, and they typically fly for only an hour or two. So for an air change every half an hour it would cost them around $4 per flight (and that's assuming low efficiency). So $100 profit is still possible (although I have to say that that's amazing low, but I'll take your word for it).

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by rshlo on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @03:53AM (#4006751)
I've heard it has something to do with the air filters. Less smoking = less clogging of the filters = less air filters replacement = more money to airlines. Just heard that, don't know if it's true.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by oneeyed on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @06:41AM (#4007189)
That's what I've been told by SNCF (the French national railroad company) officers when they forbad to smoke in trains.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Monday May 21, 2012 @11:46PM (#4006180)
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @05:05AM (#4006976)
Setting aside the fact that this source is a random person blogging and quoting a pilot (his job is flying, not dealing with air-con), the fact that airplane air "isn't as disgusting as you think" doesn't mean it isn't more disgusting now than it was when smoking was allowed.

I don't have a source and am too lazy to find one, but it was stated on QI which is a show with a team of good researchers, they can on occasion be wrong (and have corrected themselves for mistakes in previous shows in the past), but they won't put a fact into a show without getting good sources for it, so if they say that air gets recycled less now than when smoking was allowed, I believe them.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:17AM (#4007634)
That's not what you claimed - you claimed that it was a) recirculated less and as a direct result b) more airborne germs are prevalent and c) cost is saved.

Sorry - it's my fault for not giving more background on Mr. Smith - Patrick Smith has been a Delta Air Lines pilot for about 10 years, written two books on airlines, before that flying cargo, and I've met him more than once, so I'll trust him and the other pilots I've met when they tell me how their airplanes work.

Here's more of his articles on the subject: http://www.salon.com/2009/09/25/askthepilot335/ http://www.askthepilot.com/questions-and-answers/#cX-q9

and another article here: http://airlinesafety.com/articles/FSFCabinAir.htm

I'll allow that it's certainly possible that manufacturers have tweaked the circulation post-smoking, but even if so, it wasn't done with some nefarious intent or to the detriment of passengers. The air we breathe (as I'm about to get on a flight) is incredibly clean, cleaner than in my office.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by corin_ on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:22AM (#4007648)
That's not what I claimed because I didn't claim anything at all.

Your sources are all (I think?) about the fact that the way they deal with air is good, and you may well be right that it's cleaner than in your office. That doesn't mean that it's not less clean than when smoking was allowed - it may well be that in order to get rid of the smell of smoke they needed to clean the air way more than technically necessary, and that therefore after the smoking ban it could be lowered without being "some nefarious intent".

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by aidenn0 on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @01:01PM (#4008692)
Except the recirculation systems started well before the smoking ban...
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by MattRogish on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:06AM (#4008159)
I'n sorry, you're right. I confused you with the OP, please accept my apology.
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by gnaffle on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @11:41AM (#4008355)
From the transcript (http://sites.google.com/site/qitranscripts/transcripts/1x10) - just the tidbit about 6% savings in fuel cost just by reducing airflow sounds completely implausible:

"Stephen Well, the question is . . . It was almost certainly a bad idea, erm . . . It was a lousy idea, in fact, 'cause when smoking was allowed, the cabin air was completely replaced with fresh air every three minutes, and now, the airlines save money . . . they save up to 6% of their fuel bills by using a mixture of fresh and recycled air--

Julia And SARS.

Peter Ohh.

Stephen --yeah . . . using under half the amount of fresh air needed for comfort; increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the cabin; causing dizziness, and nausea, and allowing viruses to thrive. Passengers think that, because they can't smell smoke, the air is fresher. This is not so. Apart from anything else, it has dramatically increased the number of air rage incidents. One of the earliest reported incidents of air rage involved a passenger in first class, probably trying to take his mind, erm, off cigarettes, by drinking too much, and he was refused another drink, and so he decided to lodge his displeasure, and shat on top of the food trolley. "

While Patrick Smith may not be an air conditioning expert, as a pilot he's required to know how the AC systems work and how to operate them, and if there was a widespread modification to AC systems or pilot procedures after the smoking ban, I'd expect him to know about it and mention it in the article.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by Symmetry on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @02:06PM (#4009020)
An interesting book I read a while ago on health myths had a very good debunking of that urban legend: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YD69WM/ref=kinw_myk_ro_...
Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by yason on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @12:12AM (#4006237)
And enough time goes by without nobody ever seeing a cigarette being smoked midair, the fear of unknown grows (="that isn't normal, what could happen if someone lights a cigarette in an airplane, it could bring the whole plane down!") and then someone freaks out for seeing a pack of cigarettes in someone's pocket, and a few years after that the TSA will require cigarette packs to be removed at the security and kiosks in lounges to only sell cigarettes in sealed containers that must not be opened prior the flight.

And after that, if there's still someone who dares to smuggle these terrorist cancer sticks onto a plane and lights one, he will bring the whole plane down because some FAA rule from 2020 requires immediate landing in that case to the nearest strip to ensure the safety of passengers.

All that, despite the fact that there's still that ashtray in the toilet, non-optionally.

Re:Why airplane bathrooms have ashtrays by idleloops on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @04:29AM (#4006890)