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Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by yau8edq12i on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:13PM (#39961716)
Unless you're opening companies on a daily basis to evade taxes or whatever, I fail to see why you would need the process to be that fast. Because with such short delays, nobody will have actually checked anything, so the only winners are fraudsters, in the end.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by _dain_ on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:15PM (#39961727)
Every little speed bump you put in the way will deter some people on the margin.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by yau8edq12i on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:22PM (#39961772)
If you have 25k€ of capital but get flustered because the state wants to make sure that you are not opening a shell company for someone else and that your articles of incorporation are legally valid, then maybe you need to rethink something.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bouncing on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:53PM (#39962014)
I had my first LLC in grade school over a summer. I didn’t make a ton of money, but I did earn enough for my first real computer, which launched my interest in programming.

When my wife started her current business as a consultant, she was living off her savings from teaching high school. If you think every entrepreneur has €25k of capital, you need to reevaluate what your country thinks of entrepreneurship.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by Scarblac on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:24PM (#39962227)
Why did that need limited liability though? In Germany you'd just become an entrepreneur with a simpler company type without limited liability.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by paleotrope on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:36PM (#39962308)
Do you want to take the risk of losing your home just to start a business?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by Scarblac on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:43PM (#39962347)
Maybe the real difference is that such things might be possible in the US, but sound laughable in Europe?

What would you need to mess up to be liable for huge sums as a single consultant company?

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bouncing on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:31PM (#39962697)
It’s unlikely you’ll lose it all, but suppose you write a clever app — maybe a cvs editor.

Suppose you find out your cvs editor infringes on a patent and you’re liable. Suppose some business suffers data loss and sues. These things do happen in Europe too.

Also, it’s just a matter of professionalism. A sole proprietor isn’t very professional and many medium-size businesses won’t do business with sole proprietorships.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by martijnvds on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:02PM (#39962916)
You can probably get insurance for that.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by twixfel on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:30PM (#39963129)
The UK is in Europe and it is easy to found an LLC. In the UK for example, there is no capital requirement at all. That's a lot les than 25k€.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by upvota on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:54PM (#39963321)
_Was_ in Europe.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by dpassens on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:20PM (#39963541)
What continent did they move to instead?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by twixfel on Sunday April 07, 2024 @05:06PM (#39963924)
Europe is a continent. They're not in the EU. If being in the EU is a requirement to be in Europe: that means Switzerland is not in Europe?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by upvota on Monday April 08, 2024 @01:13AM (#39966407)
Fair enough - I meant to say: for business reasons, a UK LLC won’t do you much good in terms of hassle free company setup inside the European Union.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by twixfel on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:58AM (#39968421)
The discussions is not about setting up an LLC in the EU, but specifically in Germany. Subsequent to that we are comparing this with other developed countries in the world, not all of which are in the EU, which is fine, and does not undermine the comparison.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:16AM (#39968167)
Where did they move to? I heard something about them leaving the EU, but Europe?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by xenospn on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:22PM (#39962630)
There’s tax benefits and other business-only products that require a business entity.

Imagine if you’re a consultant and for whatever reason, you get sued or worse. That’s what the LLC is for.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by nolist_policy on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:56PM (#39963846)
Personal insolvency sucks, but you won't actually loose your home here in Germany.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 07, 2024 @08:27PM (#39965143)
> Personal insolvency sucks, but you won't actually loose your home here in Germany

Germany insolvency can take a decade, make getting a flat or even keeping your bank account a challenge and rarely results in debt relief to boot [1].

[1] http://www.privatinsolvenz-hilfe.org/en/german-bankruptcy-la...

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by nolist_policy on Monday April 08, 2024 @05:48AM (#39968007)
You couldn't have found a shadier source pushing FUD, if you tried to.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:13AM (#39968149)
Which does not change the fact that the process takes a decade.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bouncing on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:32PM (#39962278)
So your liability is limited. That’s like asking why you need a seatbelt.

You can get the simple company type (disregarded entity) and all the advantages of limited liability with an LLC.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by yau8edq12i on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:26PM (#39962241)
As explained in the article, if you don't have 25k€ of capital, then you open an Einzelunternehmen (sole proprietorship), not a GmbH (LLC). It's a much simpler process.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bouncing on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:30PM (#39962268)
There are a lot of reasons not to form a sole proprietorship. You have personal liability, for one.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by tdullien on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:00PM (#39962463)
A GmbH is not like an LLC, it's more like a Delaware C-Corp. People forget this all the time.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by ufocia on Sunday April 07, 2024 @06:36PM (#39964567)
Why Delaware?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by novaRom on Monday April 08, 2024 @04:44AM (#39967580)
Delaware is a popular state for incorporation in the United States due to its favorable corporate laws and established legal precedents. A C-Corporation (C-Corp) is a type of business structure that is a separate legal entity from its owners (shareholders). Shareholders have limited liability, and the corporation itself pays taxes on its profits. This is different from an LLC, where the owners report the profits and losses on their individual tax returns.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by pantalaimon on Sunday April 07, 2024 @05:00PM (#39963877)
You can also create an UG (haftungsbeschränkt) which is basically a GmbH with the 25k€ requirement removed. The only drawback is that this can make the operation look less trustworthy, depending on whom you are dealing with.

If you are selling Hot Dogs, nobody will bat an eye if it’s a UG, but if you apply for a big software contract, people might be wary.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by seabass-labrax on Sunday April 07, 2024 @06:13PM (#39964429)
Presumably the UG is still preferable to being a sole trader when dealing with much larger customers. Is that right? Or does providing services in your own name come across as more trustworthy to those parties?
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by ufocia on Sunday April 07, 2024 @06:35PM (#39964563)
I'm skeptical that an at most 25k€ recovery would alleviate weariness of a big software contract without additional due diligence.

It seems to me that a sole proprietorship would do more to protect against counterparty risk, i.e. more of the person's assets would be available to satisfy the debt.

My guess is that counterparties prefer a limited liability partner to arguably insulate themselves from employment liabilities.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by amaccuish on Monday April 08, 2024 @08:54AM (#39969212)
Can confirm, did the form online in Berlin, super easy and quick.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by _dain_ on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:28PM (#39961812)
I disagree. 25k euro is simultaneously a large and not a large amount of money. It's big enough to lock out many potential small business founders. But also many ordinary inexperienced people can have that amount of money up front, yet still be deterred by the complexity of a 6 week long incorporation process as described in this article. Especially in the early days of a company when your stress level is already through the roof dealing with the actual problems of your new business.

I am generally suspicious of rhetoric like "you're a little well off, so we can heap arbitrary amounts of bullshit on you and you shouldn't complain".

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by yau8edq12i on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:30PM (#39962264)
> It's big enough to lock out many potential small business founders.

They can open an Einzelunternehmen (sole proprietorship) instead. You shouldn't (and cannot) go all the way to the complexities of a GmbH (LLC) if your company is that tiny.

> But also many ordinary inexperienced people can have that amount of money up front, yet still be deterred by the complexity of a 6 week long incorporation process as described in this article.

Back to my point then. If they're not ready to put up with okay-ish bureaucratic friction in the founding phase, they're not ready to open a company. Because if you think opening the company is hard, wait until payroll or tax season is upon you.

> I am generally suspicious of rhetoric like "you're a little well off, so we can heap arbitrary amounts of bullshit on you and you shouldn't complain".

You're completely mischaracterizing what I said. Don't do that.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by _dain_ on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:19PM (#39962603)
>They can open an Einzelunternehmen (sole proprietorship) instead.

Sole proprietorship doesn't have liability protection. That's not a small thing.

>You shouldn't (and cannot) go all the way to the complexities of a GmbH (LLC) if your company is that tiny.

"[Thing] is too complex, don't bother with it" is not an argument against making [thing] less complex. It's actually just a restatement of the problem!

Other countries make it easy to set up a limited company. UK, US, Singapore, they're all just a token fee and a handful of forms. I see no reason for Germany to make it so difficult as described in the article.

A lot of successful companies were started by broke college grads out of their dorms; they would never have gotten off the ground if they had to scrounge together the equivalent 25k euros before even getting started. Hell, I don't have a spare 25k lying around and I've been working full time for 4 years.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by pantalaimon on Sunday April 07, 2024 @05:03PM (#39963900)
You can create a UG (haftungsbeschränkt) with all the lability protection of a GmbH with 1€ capital.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:21AM (#39968197)
Yes, but you need to keep one third of the profit in the company until you reach the €25k, then you convert to GmbH.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by tainted_blood on Monday April 08, 2024 @08:29AM (#39969003)
i don't see a problem with that.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @08:54AM (#39969205)
I haven't said it's a problem but virtually everyone pointing at UG as a fix to GmbH Stammkapital fails to mention it.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by data_maan on Monday April 08, 2024 @03:29AM (#39967134)
> If they're not ready to put up with okay-ish bureaucratic friction in the founding phase, they're not ready to open a company.

With this mentality, it's actually a miracle a German startup scene exists at all.

The _last thing_ a founder wants is to wade through useless bureaucracy when there's a product to push and Vacs to talk to.

But Germany never really was a founder's country, and much more ruled by big conglomerates it seems or small family business who did non-innovative things (the bakery at the corner - necessary&nice, but not innovative), than startup culture.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bildung on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:28PM (#39961806)
And yet the self-employment rate in Germany seems to be higher than in the US: https://genderdata.worldbank.org/indicators/sl-emp-self-zs/?...
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by tticvs on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:33PM (#39961835)
Most self-employed people in Germany operate as "Kleinunternehmer" and therefore lack the liability protections provided by the LLC equivalent discussed in the article. It's apples to oranges.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by lttlrck on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:48PM (#39963273)
That depends how they defined self-employed. It could vary widely based on which vehicle was used, LLC, LTD, sole-proprietor. And LLC and LTD is ambiguous, yet easy to attain outside Germany.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by shaism on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:35PM (#39961854)
I think the time is not necessarily the issue. The issue is that everything is very manual and “analog” in Germany. You have to find a notary, register the “Gewerbe” at the Gewerbeamt, get a tax ID, and so forth. All are different processes with different institutions.

In theory, you can do the notarization online, but when I attempted to do it, the first notary did not even reply, and the second one told me: “The system is currently down. I would need to come to the office.”

In the US, you can just use Stripe Atlas or similar services, and get everything done for $500 in a nice digital interface within 2 or 3 days. But even if it took 2 weeks, it wouldn’t matter much because one doesn’t have to put time and energy into it whereas in Germany you have to contact people, coordinate, etc…

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by yau8edq12i on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:30PM (#39962269)
The friction is precisely the point.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by tverbeure on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:20PM (#39963543)
These kind of frictions are typically not an exception. When I read this blog post about the steps to just start a business, I immediately assume that there'll be similar frictions during other steps. And indeed, the comments here talk about the difficulty to own a home when the money was already paid in October, how it can take up to 2 years to close down a company, or how there's a 30% exit tax even if you leave the country only for a few years.

The friction that you seem to like has almost certainly cost Germany a good deal of jobs from people who decides that the hassle just wasn't worth it.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by jimkoen on Sunday April 07, 2024 @01:38PM (#39962320)
It is and it isn't. The IHK registration is a sham, since they're a government protected cartel that don't even act in the interests of those they're supposed to guard (like Azubis).
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by Aerbil313 on Monday April 08, 2024 @05:49AM (#39968011)
Security through friction is not an ideal security model at all.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by bouncing on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:47PM (#39961966)
Your individual identity is tied to the EIN, LLC, and bank account. I doubt it’s that useful for tax evasion.

Each little step of friction discourages some entrepreneurs and adds barriers to entry for incumbents to prevent competition.

And just in general, not doing something very often is not a valid reason for making it needlessly expensive and time consuming.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by blackhawkC17 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:47PM (#39961968)
Ease of doing business is one of the top things to look at in any country.

It’s on law enforcement and regulators to counter fraudsters. Ordinary citizens should not bear pain because of them.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by logicchains on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:30PM (#39963131)
When you have hundreds of millions of people in a country, there's a lot of companies being opened on a daily basis, and the time wasted on bureaucracy quickly adds up to a dent in overall national productivity.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by arp242 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:14PM (#39963493)
It doesn't need to be that fast, but the process in some (or maybe even many?) EU countries is rather ridiculous, as described here.

Anyone should be able to start a business, reasonably easily and cheaply – I feel it's a matter of basic freedom and liberty: you should be able to do what you bloody well want with your life, including starting a business. Basic protections to prevent the most egregious of abuse is fine, but mostly it's just about registration and paperwork.

Having to pay tens of thousands of euros for limited liability so you don't risk getting completely assraped if your business fails is how you keep the poor plebs in their place. All of this is classic "one set of rules for the poor, another set of rules for the rich" type of stuff.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by anaidenov on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:24PM (#39963578)
A seasoned fraudster or tax evader have all the experience, time, and resources to navigate and exploit the system regardless of the measures in place.

On the other hand, an ordinary individual considering starting a new business, perhaps only a few times in their lifetime, may indeed be dissuaded from pursuing this venture.

This issue mirrors the inefficacy of anti-money laundering policies, which, while intended to curb criminal activities, have a negligible impact estimated at merely 0.1%; but the global cost of implementing these policies exceeds their benefits of two orders of magnitude (see DOI:10.1080/25741292.2020.1725366 for details).

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by nickpsecurity on Sunday April 07, 2024 @05:11PM (#39963960)
For anyone reading, here’s a URL for the paper they are taking about:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25741292.2020.1...

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by redrove on Monday April 08, 2024 @02:11AM (#39966705)
Excellently put, I couldn’t agree more!

If you’re an entrepreneur AML will cause you nothing but harm while the rich avoid it through the caribbean, Luxembourg, Monaco, Switzerland, etc.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by paulddraper on Sunday April 07, 2024 @04:49PM (#39963782)
Do you actually need to do it in 2 hours? No, of course not.

And you probably won't do it that fast anyway. But that figure demonstrates the small amount of red tape.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by nickpsecurity on Sunday April 07, 2024 @05:08PM (#39963937)
What you are actually saying is that speed is only for criminals and anything honest must drag out for a long time. Neither are true.

Starting this process should only require that they know their responsibilities, have identified themselves, and have fulfilled any obligations like payment. With government having our ID’s and login/sig/payment tech, each step should be done in seconds. Then, some fraud prevention spotting obvious issues might add a bit more time. It should still be quick.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by matchbok on Sunday April 07, 2024 @10:50PM (#39965805)
There is not less fraud in Germany. Time does not equal quality or validity. It just means time.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by benced on Sunday April 07, 2024 @11:50PM (#39966046)
I don’t like this mindset that just because an individual can see why something needs to be better, it shouldn’t be.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by data_maan on Monday April 08, 2024 @03:22AM (#39967084)
Process is too fast...

Are you a German? :D :D

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:12AM (#39968139)
WireCard GmbH AG, thanks commenter from below.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by nolist_policy on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:14AM (#39968154)
Come on. WireCard AG
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by rad_gruchalski on Monday April 08, 2024 @06:22AM (#39968201)
Even better heh.
Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by mNovak on Monday April 08, 2024 @01:25PM (#39971858)
Just because something is important doesn't mean it has to be inconvenient. A lot of people conflate opening a business with a major life event and embarking on a career, where a few weeks of admin is some kind of minimum commitment. But the whole idea is that we should allow for small organic "side hustles" and growth.

Here in the US (at least in entrepreneurial circles) it's common advice to wrap an LLC around anything that involves money. Hobby website starting to get some traffic? LLC. Selling earrings at the craft fair? LLC. I own a small building with my brother--you bet there's an LLC there. I started a $0 capital consulting company while a post-doc, just to try.

It's not a daily occurrence, but often enough that I don't want to waste time.

Re:How to Found a Company in Germany: 14 "Easy" Steps and Lo... by geraldhh on Tuesday April 09, 2024 @02:58AM (#39976801)
some ppl want to have good data, others are scrambling to get anything