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Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by InsomniacL on Thursday March 21, 2024 @12:58PM (#39781229)
I don't use smart watches but I have an example on the trackers.

Tile created trackers and every so often I get an annoying popup

> ~"Tile has been using your location, do you want to stop this?"

Apple then created a competitor product, 'AirTags', but their product does not have these popups.

This is anti-competitive because Apple bypass the restrictions they made on their platform for their product that their competitive have to follow.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by jorvi on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:07PM (#39781356)
Longest-running example is Apple Maps displaying mapping on the lockscreen and having special bespoke turn-by-turn notifications, using a private API to which no other navigation app has access to.

The other big one is Apple muscling itself into the music streaming market by converting Music.app into Apple Music. In a fair world, Apple would have been required to show a pop-up that offered Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, Deezer etc. in a random order. You can’t unmake an omelette, so I feel Apple should be forced to pay billions to these competing services as recompense.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by HumblyTossed on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:26PM (#39782458)
> Longest-running example is Apple Maps displaying mapping on the lockscreen and having special bespoke turn-by-turn notifications, using a private API to which no other navigation app has access to.

This is a huge one! I love this feature, but really would like to see it shared with Google and Waze.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by positus on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:15PM (#39782307)
People know how to use the App Store. If they want Spotify they know how to find it. It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by cush on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:50PM (#39782783)
It is when they charge those companies 30%. It’s a competitive advantage only a monopoly can sustain
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by jorvi on Thursday March 21, 2024 @03:00PM (#39782922)
> People know how to use the App Store.

Apparently they didn’t because Apple Music boomed right after that change.

> It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

It is when that company is one part of a duopoly, especially for a device pretty critical to daily life :+)

> On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

It’s a one-time pop-up, on opening the music app the first time. Same as the browser choice pop-up on your desktop. Hardly an advertisement.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by positus on Thursday March 21, 2024 @03:49PM (#39783532)
> Apparently they didn’t because Apple Music boomed right after that change.

I wonder how much offering discounted subscriptions to students or iCloud Family users also contributed to its success.

> It’s a one-time pop-up, on opening the music app the first time. Same as the browser choice pop-up on your desktop. Hardly an advertisement.

I don't like browser selection options either. Then again, I tend to use Apple's default apps unless I have an unusual reason to use something else.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by bluk on Thursday March 21, 2024 @03:07PM (#39783017)
> It is by no means unfair, immoral, or unethical for a company to prefer and promote their own products.

Unfairness is at the heart of so many antitrust lawsuits (whether successful or not). Anyone old enough to recall Microsoft in the 1990s would say that many people (not at MSFT) were pointing out how unfair bundling Internet Explorer was. You may disagree but it was one of the reasons MSFT got sued.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by tssge on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:56PM (#39782872)
>On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but could you clarify a bit what you mean? If I open App Store on my iPhone, it is full of third-party software advertisements by default and I don't even know if they can be turned off.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by positus on Thursday March 21, 2024 @03:52PM (#39783560)
After downloading the software that I know I need I rarely ever open the App Store. I really only do for updates every once in a while. I don't mind them in the App Store because that is an appropriate place for them. Seeing them as apart of the normal platform UI (Microsoft Start menu, looking at you) is distasteful. I go out of my way to avoid advertisements both on and off the internet and my QOL has improved greatly as a result.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by Dylan16807 on Thursday March 21, 2024 @06:05PM (#39784981)
> After downloading the software that I know I need I rarely ever open the App Store.

> Seeing them as apart of the normal platform UI (Microsoft Start menu, looking at you) is distasteful.

Then it doesn't sound like a one-time prompt as part of setup would be an issue.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by heavyset_go on Thursday March 21, 2024 @03:02PM (#39782943)
You already see them on the App Store.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by oarsinsync on Thursday March 21, 2024 @06:15PM (#39785079)
> On a personal note, I never in my life want to see advertisements for third-party software by default.

You might want to avoid buying any new Apple products then, or your iPhone settings screen will regularly show you adverts for free trials for Apple News, Apple TV, Apple fitness, Apple Arcade.

Better still, unlike every other free trial in this ecosystem, these terminate the moment you cancel the trial, rather than at the end of the trial period.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by mattl on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:09PM (#39782208)
> by converting Music.app into Apple Music

Apple made iTunes (which already supported Apple Music) into a dedicated Music app, and offloaded some of the other stuff iTunes could do into separate apps and the Finder.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by jorvi on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:27PM (#39782479)
I’m mostly talking about iOS. Mac market share isn’t too huge, but iPhone market share in the US (where Apple Music exploded in user count immediately after) is.

Ordinarily I hate market interventions like this, but with iOS+Android being a duopoly, we don’t have a free market so special rules start to apply.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by mock-possum on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:40PM (#39781844)
RIP lala.com, my first and favorite music streaming service - bought out by apple and summarily closed with previous users encouraged to migrate to Apple Music. I think I got a $15 credit or something. As if I needed a reason to further resent Apple.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by ssully on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:10PM (#39781399)
Not saying this to defend Apple, but last week I had that same location tracking pop up for Apples Weather app.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by rezonant on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:51PM (#39781995)
Yes but that doesn't distract from the airtags issue, because airtags are supported by the OS itself, not a specific app. Good on Apple for applying the same rules to it's apps, but not so good on Apple for not giving Tile a way to work in the same manner as airtags.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Thursday March 21, 2024 @05:09PM (#39784435)
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/04/tile-ceo-on-competition...

> > The main points of differentiation of AirTags vis a vis Tile are enabled by platform capabilities that we don't have access to.

> Apple has, in fact, launched the Find My network that gives third-party accessories some of the same access that AirTags have, and Find My network accessories will be able to access the U1 chip in the iPhone 11 and 12 models much like the AirTags, but Tile won't be able to use the Find My network unless it abandons its own app and infrastructure, which it is likely unwilling to do.

> Prober said that Tile has been "seeking to access" the U1 chip since its introduction in the iPhone , and has been denied.

---

Here's the developer docs for accessing the U1 chip https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction/...

... and a presentation on the use of the U1 chip with 3rd party accessories at WWDC 2021 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by rezonant on Thursday March 21, 2024 @06:20PM (#39785128)
This is different. This is Apple saying use our network, not allowing Tile to use their own.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Thursday March 21, 2024 @06:51PM (#39785415)
Using the U1 chip for precise location finding in the local area doesn't appear to require using the Find My network for items. That API has been opened up to all 3rd party developers - probably not initially (the "we can't get access to the U1 chip" was from May 4th, 2019. It was opened up to 3rd party developers with iOS 16 ( https://www.macrumors.com/2022/07/20/ios-16-expands-u1-enabl... ).

For "find my" integration this would suggest two things.

First, that Find My should also query some 3rd party services for location of items - that I should be able to register a 3rd party with a standard API (akin to IMAP for email) that has location tracking info. That's reasonable - I look forward to a standard (and secure) API that doesn't leak my own location data when querying it.

Secondly, if it was "I want tiles to seamlessly be found by Apple devices just like AirTags are - the entire Apple network can find them" this gets into a question of how much cryptography and security would Apple need to open up to have 3rd party BLE devices ping to other services outside of their control that may leak the location information of people walking past them. Why should {arbitrary phone creator} need to ping a 3rd party whenever someone comes within range of the BLE device? That is, if Android devices aren't required to ping Apple's Find My network when in range of an AirTag, why should Apple be required to ping Tile's servers when in range of a Tile?

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by rezonant on Friday March 22, 2024 @05:26AM (#39788834)
> how much cryptography and security would Apple need to open up to have 3rd party BLE devices ping to other services outside of their control that may leak the location information of people walking past them.

None, simply proxy it through Apple's existing servers and do not include any information about the device that found the tracker. If you are worried about rogue devices telling iPhone to ping rogue services, then just add a service whitelist to the scheme: Apple trusts Google's service and Tile's service, Google trusts Apple's service and Tile's service, but <random URL> isn't going to get pinged.

Now just make a process by which you prove legitimacy in order to get added to the list and require platform approval.

> Why should {arbitrary phone creator} need to ping a 3rd party whenever someone comes within range of the BLE device?

Because if every phone could ping the network associated with every tracker, then the strength of the network is all participating devices, not just OEM's brand. Apple gets the benefit of having a better Find My network outside the US where Android dominates, and Android gets the benefit of a better Find My network inside the US where iPhone dominates.

> That is, if Android devices aren't required to ping Apple's Find My network when in range of an AirTag, why should Apple be required to ping Tile's servers when in range of a Tile?

Required is a strong word, but Android should ping Apple's network when it sees an airtag, and I bet Google would take that deal if it were available.

All this is sidelong to the point though, that Tile cannot build an app that iPhone users can use that can tie into the beacon functionality the iPhone is already doing in order to enable Tile users with iPhones (that is, those iPhone users with the Tile app installed) have as reliable and friction-free an experience as iPhone users have with airtags.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Friday March 22, 2024 @09:50AM (#39790761)
> None, simply proxy it through Apple's existing servers and do not include any information about the device that found the tracker. If you are worried about rogue devices telling iPhone to ping rogue services, then just add a service whitelist to the scheme: Apple trusts Google's service and Tile's service, Google trusts Apple's service and Tile's service, but <random URL> isn't going to get pinged.

Doing a "ping this other service" leaks information about the device that has been found. It also opens up Apple to knowing about who found the device or where it was found from information sent across the network. This is an important thing in security of the AirTag (and the rest of the Find My network) - the person detecting the BLE message has zero knowledge about it (other than its existence), Apple has zero knowledge about the person finding it or the device - only the Apple account that is associated with, and the person who owns the Apple account only has knowledge about where and what device - not who found it.

To not compromise the security of the Find My network, other vendors

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/sec6cbc80fd0/...

> In addition to making sure that location information and other data are fully encrypted, participants’ identities remain private from each other and from Apple. The traffic sent to Apple by finder devices contains no authentication information in the contents or headers. As a result, Apple doesn’t know who the finder is or whose device has been found. Furthermore, Apple doesn’t log information that would reveal the identity of the finder and retains no information that would allow anyone to correlate the finder and owner. The device owner receives only the encrypted location information that’s decrypted and displayed in the Find My app with no indication as to who found the device.

This would be an opportunity for Tile to work at trying to establish a standard like was done with UWB ( https://www.nxp.com/applications/enabling-technologies/conne... ) so that multiple vendors could use the technology and chips for interoperability.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by InsomniacL on Friday March 22, 2024 @06:06AM (#39789054)
> probably not initially

Apple giving their tracking product a 3 or 4 year head start over it's competitors.

If you're going to compete against other products on your platform, give it a level playing field.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Friday March 22, 2024 @10:33AM (#39791140)
From 3 years ago https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/05/tile-to-launch-to-launch-a...

> Tile is preparing to introduce a new product this year that will serve as a rival to Apple’s long-awaited AirTags and other lost-item trackers coming to the market, including those from Samsung, TechCrunch has learned. While previous Tile trackers have leveraged Bluetooth to help users locate lost items — like a misplaced set of keys, for example — Tile’s new product will take advantage of UWB (ultra-wideband) technology to find the missing items. It will also use augmented reality to help guide users to the lost item’s location via the Tile mobile app.

> ...

> Apple last year began to give third-party developers access to its U1 chip, which uses UWB technology to make the iPhone spatially aware, via its “NearbyInteraction” framework. Some Android devices also ship with the technology. It’s unclear to what extent Tile is using the new frameworks with its forthcoming product, and the company is likely under NDA with regard to its work with Apple specifically, per earlier reports.

> ...

> Meanwhile, according to a new research note from analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, Apple will reveal its own Tile competitor, AirTags this year. Apple has already all but confirmed AirTag’s existence, as it even accidentally published references to its lost-item tracker in an official support video at one point. Leaked images of the AirTags also began to circulate this week, adding fuel to these reports of a “soon-ish” AirTags launch.

> A UWB-powered tracker could help allow Tile to maintain its position in the market. Tile, as of last year, had sold 26 million Tile devices, and was locating around six million items per day across 195 countries. Tile’s website now says its devices reach over 230 countries and territories. With this scale, Tile today leads the market. But Apple’s AirTags could have a first-party advantage with deep integrations into its “Find My” app — a concern that was brought up by Tile in last year’s antitrust hearings in reference to how Apple wields its platform and market power to overrun competitive businesses.

----

I would like to see an integration similar to how mail and homekit work for the Find My : Devices. Enter in the server and account info and be able to get the location of a device registered to that service. Note that that has all sorts of privacy issues if not properly designed.

However, such integration would also eliminate the moat that tile perceives that it has for its product and the differentiation for it.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by HumblyTossed on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:34PM (#39782572)
Also, Apple licenses out the Find My tech to other trackers. But... you don't get the new precision finding features.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Thursday March 21, 2024 @05:10PM (#39784446)
> But... you don't get the new precision finding features.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2021/10165/ appears to suggest differently.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by HumblyTossed on Thursday March 21, 2024 @07:40PM (#39785780)
Maybe it's new because existing ones that work with Find My cannot.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by shagie on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:34AM (#39791726)
They have to buy the chips (and integrate them) from a vendor like https://www.st.com/en/wireless-connectivity/ultra-wideband-p... or https://www.nxp.com/applications/enabling-technologies/conne...

It isn't something that any device can do by default. For example, Samsung integrated it into their Smart Tags ( https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-smarttag-2-uwb/ )

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by cpuguy83 on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:05PM (#39781322)
Not really defending Apple here since they do have an unfair advantage over on these trackers.

But even the weather app triggers that same location pop up.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by lotsofpulp on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:04PM (#39781303)
I would bet most people already know using an Apple product and agreeing to the Find My and other terms in intial setup means Apple is always tracking you. So a pop up from Apple saying that Apple is tracking you makes no sense, it is already known, and accepted by the device user.

Someone other than Apple tracking you, however, is notable, and so people (at least I) would always want to know if someone other than Apple is tracking me via software operating on the device.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by InsomniacL on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:12PM (#39781440)
I would bet most people buying tracking devices know those tracking devices are tracking location.

The point is Apple as a platform provider made something (location without warning) on the platform available to themselves as a platform user (Airtags), that they didn't make available to other platform users who are their competitors (Tile).

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by jchw on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:24PM (#39781624)
But, some Apple apps do in fact tell you that. This actually does make sense, too. When you collect information for one specific reason, it doesn't mean the user has granted you consent to use it for other purposes carte blanche.

One might retort "Fine, but then granting that permission once is enough." Apparently, that is only true sometimes, and only for Apple.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by Draiken on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:08PM (#39781367)
Why? Because a user allowed them to track them when using one app, it doesn't mean should extend automatically that to every app they ever develop.

This is clearly Apple apps being treated differently.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by positus on Thursday March 21, 2024 @02:11PM (#39782248)
I'm pretty sure you're asked whether or not you want to enable Location Services when going through Setup Assistant during the initial device provisioning.
Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by lotsofpulp on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:21PM (#39781561)
>Why? Because a user allowed them to track them when using one app, it doesn't mean should extend automatically that to every app they ever develop.

The whole point of the notification is to notify you when an entity is tracking you. If you already know Apple is tracking you, then it does not make a difference if Apple's App A or App B or App C is tracking you, it is all Apple.

Re:U.S. sues Apple, accusing it of maintaining an iPhone mon... by Draiken on Thursday March 21, 2024 @01:34PM (#39781760)
I must be missing something because that's simply not true in Android. I can individually grant/revoke tracking permissions for each app. I assumed the same would be true for iPhone.

For me it makes no sense to make it only about the entity. It's like saying "the US government is tracking you", instead of saying "the US government is tracking you through this app right now"