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Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by iam-TJ on Thursday March 07, 2024 @11:52AM (#39631252)
Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by KingOfCoders on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:19PM (#39631589)
I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by dragonwriter on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:23PM (#39632634)
> I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

No, it wouldn't.

NATO deciding it was willing to piss off Russia (which is why, without those active conflicts, Ukraine and Georgia were denied MAPs in 2008) would allow NATO membership. There's no actual rule that would prevent Ukraine from joining during the invasion (and even if there was, any NATO rule can be changed, either in a general way or to add a sui generis exception, by the same group -- all NATO members agreeing together -- required to admit a new member under the existing rule, so the rule would not actually be an additional barrier.)

"But," you might object, "even if there is not a rule preventing it, Ukraine joining while the Russian invasion continues would be impractical because it would immediately trigger Article 5, as long as Russian forces were engaging Ukrainian forces anywhere in the country, or even occupying any part of the country."

That could be managed, though, by admitting Ukraine while adopting either a general (for later review) or temporary with explicit time limits or other terminating conditions exclusion of some parts of its territory from Article 5 (not all the territory of all NATO members is covered by Article 5 now.)

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by dmix on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:39PM (#39632884)
What practical difference would joining NATO make in the short term though?

Ukraines problems are logistical and attrition and they have very strong NATO support. The red lines about prodding Russia will still exist and the supply shortages across the EU will as well.

Joining NATO makes sense in peace time and so diplomats can hang out at conferences and get formally connected to intelligence data. But how different is that to the data feeds Ukraine gets today?

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by dragonwriter on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:50PM (#39633055)
> What practical difference would joining NATO make in the short term though?

Depends on the terms.

If, say, Article 5 excluded defined territories whose control was actively contested at the time or which were occupied by Russia with an explicit time limit, and applied fully to the rest of the country (including places Russia likes to lob missiles but cannot yet effectively contest for control of), that would pretty substantially change the Russian calculus of the war.

And especially if it also came with the kind of forward deployment (to the covered part of Ukraine) of NATO troops made to other eastern-flank countries, it would free up Ukrainian forces to deal with the contested and currently-occupied areas.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by bluGill on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:39PM (#39632892)
NATO could even allow Ukraine to join as a indirect declaration of war. If Russia attacks Finland (or any NATO country) today, Ukraine will probably be invited to join instantly - NATO would already be at war and expanding the scope help NATO (giving some place else to attack from) far more than the need to defend an additional country would hurt.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by u320 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:00PM (#39633190)
The entire purpose of joining NATO is to defend against russian imperialism (Something Sweden has a ton experience with, for hundreds of years) Always has been. There is not much point in joining if you exclude that bit.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by Terr_ on Thursday March 07, 2024 @05:11PM (#39635187)
Certainly the main purpose, but I think over the last 70+ years there are some other benefits to members.

For example, fostering trade of military goods and technologies between members (especially for the USA as a major exporter) and smoothing out their national budgeting since it's kind of like buying insurance.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by KingOfCoders on Friday March 08, 2024 @01:26AM (#39638358)
"Ukraine and Georgia were denied MAPs in 2008"

2008 is not 2024.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by pclmulqdq on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:29PM (#39631752)
All indications suggest that Russia also wants Odessa and the rest of the black sea coastline, which would probably never be acceptable even with NATO membership.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tharmas on Thursday March 07, 2024 @02:27PM (#39633530)
Russia will take Odessa and the rest of the black sea coastline.
[dead]
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by Fatalist_ma on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:55PM (#39633111)
Acoordinto Gallup, October 2023: 31% want Ukraine to negotiate to end the war as soon as possible. https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-...

According to NDI(Movember 2023): 42% say that Ukraine should engage in negotiations, but 84% do not find it acceptable to end the war if it means letting Russia have the territory it controls currently. Even if Russia leaves all territory occupied since the 2022 invasion, 73% won't agree to such peace deal, they want pre-2014 borders. https://www.ndi.org/publications/opportunities-and-challenge...

If there are any newer poll results, please share.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by miroljub on Friday March 08, 2024 @07:46AM (#39640552)
Kyiv's institute of Sociology had a more recent poll and published a Press Release on 21.02.2024

https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1372&page=2

Have a look at the Graph 9 and 10 about their openness to negotiations.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by lawn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:30PM (#39631786)
That would require Russia to back off, which they of course wouldn't do.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by Terr_ on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:49PM (#39632113)
This doesn't sit well with me, even with the disclaimer. I think it's because:

1. It suggests that there's a distinct objective/legalistic blocker to Ukraine's membership, when in reality the bar is "whatever existing NATO members want."

2. Even if #1 and Ukraine tried it, the benchmark is fundamentally unfair/unrealistic/unworkable. In this particular case, Putin would instantly declare-ownership over more Ukrainian territory, over and over, indefinitely.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by u320 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:39PM (#39632885)
There is a legal blocker and that is the war. Nato can not admit a member that is at war with Russia without starting a huge war.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:56PM (#39632224)
Putin is attacking Ukraine as hard as he can. We don't need to worry about provoking more aggression out of him.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by Terr_ on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:59PM (#39632272)
That seems like a non-sequitur, did you intend to reply to a different comment/thread?
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:07PM (#39632374)
No, I'm responding to your last sentence.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by Terr_ on Thursday March 07, 2024 @03:13PM (#39634069)
I still don't understand why you think I'm "worried" about someone "provoking" Putin.

If anything it's the opposite: There's no point trying to avoid provoking Putin because he's a dishonest actor and has/will feign a grievance for any reason that benefits him. Conciliatory gestures won't be reciprocated.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by libertine on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:28PM (#39632718)
I think it's a matter of changing the rules, just like Russia does so freely, I think it's about time NATO does the same thing.

Even if that meant that NATO would be in direct conflict with Russia, then it would be solved between NATO and Russia.

>2. Even if #1 and Ukraine tried it, the benchmark is fundamentally unfair/unrealistic/unworkable. In this particular case, Putin would instantly declare-ownership over more Ukrainian territory, over and over, indefinitely.

If sovereign countries' security depends on what delusional dictators write on a piece of paper, then this isn't much of a world worth living in.

Long story short, Putin can claim whatever it wants, in the eyes of the UN, Ukraine has its 1991 borders and that's where they should remain no matter what - even if it means a direct conflict with NATO. Enough with this bluff bullsht.

Are Russians, who live in one of the largest countries in the world filled with resources, going to commit collective suicide because of Ukraine?

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by partiallypro on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:39PM (#39631932)
Even if they did, NATO can't accept new members that are in active conflict. Putin doesn't believe Ukraine is a real country, real ethnic group, or real culture. Ukraine could give up those entire regions and Russia would not be satisfied, only pushing the war front farther up closer to the West. The war could be smaller at that point, but it would still be active, and Putin/Russia would make sure that they conflict were hot enough to not allow membership.
[dead]
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by dralley on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:15PM (#39631528)
And here I was thinking that "arrogant" was expecting a neighboring country, whose nation, identity and language you claim "aren't real", whose people you call "little Russians", would fall at your feet within days.

And flagrantly violating every agreement that has ever been made w/r/t Ukraine. And killing political opposition with impunity. And giving medals to every soldier in the units stationed in Bucha a few days after of the massacres were uncovered. And "annexing" regions of Ukraine where your soldiers haven't even reached, and putting them on official maps of Russia.

And using chemical and radiological weapons to conduct assassinations on UK soil. And blowing up Czech ammo depots.

And telling the world that if there were any Russian soldiers amongst the "little green men", they were merely on vacation.

And this trash: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by maximilianburke on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:24PM (#39631675)
How is the west being arrogant if the new member states want to join? It's not the west who invaded Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014. It's not the west that invaded Ukraine in 2022. Countries bordering Russia have, for decades, known the threat that Russian imperialism is to them and it's their choice to protect themselves from an extremely aggressive, brutal neighbour.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by KingOfCoders on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:29PM (#39631760)
Never understood people who believe the narrative of an expanding NATO. The baltics, Poland and other Eastern countries want to join NATO because they have been invaded several times by Russia, women raped, cities plundered, people tortured and killed. That is the reason those countries want to join NATO.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by overstay8930 on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:23PM (#39631661)
The west is arrogant because everyone else is trying to bring back feudalism lol

There's a reason non-western aligned countries are a bunch of corrupt shitholes, they want more serfs to do their bidding and the west is showing their population what their life could be and ruining their plans.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by avtolik on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:17PM (#39631562)
If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tharmas on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:30PM (#39631789)
Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed.

Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missiles in Cuba, when Cuba, a sovereign country asked for those missiles (aka The Cuban Missile Crisis). Substitute Cuba for Ukraine and USA for Russia and you will be begin to understand the Russian point of view. But hey the West is Right, We are the Good Guys, always on the side of Freedom and Democracy so we can't be wrong. Just ask the Palestinians in Gaza.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by CogitoCogito on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:41PM (#39631967)
Ukraine hasn't even been formally offered membership in NATO. They've never had any realistic prospect to join. Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Stop pretending otherwise.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:59PM (#39632269)
I'm sure if we just kneel down and give Putin what he wants, he'll stop with eastern Ukraine.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by hackerlight on Friday March 08, 2024 @12:48AM (#39638165)
> That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger.

You haven't considered the consequences of folding to nuclear blackmail. That increases the chances bad actors will use nuclear blackmail again (because you've shown it works), and it increases nuclear proliferation because small states start feeling unsafe if larger states refuse to help them defend themselves out of fear.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by lawn on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:22PM (#39631641)
How many times has Putin tried to shake the nuke stick?

He has threatened Sweden directly with nukes if we ever tried to join Nato for instance.

And even then, Putin has no limits. We cannot continue to put red lines and limits on ourselves when the opponent doesn't have any.

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by troupo on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:28PM (#39631745)
Russia: signed the memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, sovereignty and independence.

Also Russia: "NATO pinky promised in a discussion between two people no one remembers that it wouldn't expand East, so we're invading Ukraine and threatening you with nuclear war"

Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by tharmas on Thursday March 07, 2024 @12:41PM (#39631966)
They signed when they were weak. That's Great Power Politics. The USA was sole Hegemon. It could do whatever it wanted. The West continued to provoke Russia because the West knew Russia was too weak to do anything about it. The West's arrogance was in underestimating how Russia would react as they continued to provoke them. (By "provoke" I mean doing things that the West knew that the Russians wouldn't like). The neocons in Washington were quite happy to see Russia invade Ukraine. They thought it was Afghanistan 2.0 (Soviet invasion, I'm referring too). The neocons thought they could bleed Russia dry using Ukraine as a proxy to bring down the Putin regime. A huge miscalculation. Now Russia and China a friends. In Great Power Politics that is a huge blunder. Why do you think Nixon, a staunch anti-communist, would do a deal with China? Answer is: Great Power Politics.
Re:Sweden Is a NATO Member by ProjectArcturis on Thursday March 07, 2024 @01:06PM (#39632368)
From a purely realpolitik standpoint, this war is going very well for the US. Russia is bogged down in a stalemate, with 100,000 soldiers dead already. (vs 10,000 over 10 years in Afghanistan). They've destroyed the idea that Russia is the second-strongest army in the world. NATO is now stronger and larger than ever, and haven't taken a single casualty.

My heart goes out to the Ukrainians, who are fighting determinedly not to be liquidated by Putin's mafia state. But the Dick Cheneys of the world couldn't be happier that Putin decided to invade.