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Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by montroser on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @09:19PM (#39462362)
This explanation feels unsatisfying. It's so high-level that it's mostly void of any actual information.

What was the wrong assumption that the code made that caused this wrong behavior? Why was it not caught in the many layers of automated testing before it made its way to production? What process and procedural changes are being implemented to reduce the risk of this class of bug happening again?

Presumably all of that is playing out internally, but if the public postmortem is meant to instill confidence, you have to actually share some of the details, or else it becomes meaningless.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by __MatrixMan__ on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @09:56PM (#39462629)
I think your questions all grew up in a world where the people operating the thing knew some rationalist who could think deductively about its operation.

But neural networks... they're an exercise in empiricism. We only ever understood that it works, never why. It's sort of a miracle that it doesn't produce buggy output all the time.

What do you tell people when they want to know why the miracles have stopped? Root cause: the gods are angry.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by FridgeSeal on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:39PM (#39462954)
I’d genuinely expect the people who built and operate the thing to have a far better write up than what amounted to “it no worked lol”. Sure, NN’s are opaque, but this org paints itself as the herald and shepard of ai and they just produced a write up that’s hardly worthy of a primary-school-child’s account of their recent holiday.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by thethimble on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:37AM (#39463912)
Random sampling issues due to problems with the inference kernels on certain GPU configurations. This seems like a clear root cause and has nothing to do with the magic of NNs. I don’t understand what the fuss is about.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by throwuwu on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:11AM (#39465504)
They just want to reinforce their own bias that OpenAI BAD and DUMB, rationalism GOOD! When it’s their own fault for not understanding enough theory to know what happens if there were to be a loss of precision in the predicted embedding vector that maps to a token. If enough decimal places are lopped off or nudged then that moves the predicted vector slightly away from where it should be and you get a nearby token instead. Instant aphasia. The report said it was a GPU configuration problem so my guess is the wrong precision was used in some number of GPUs but I have no idea how they configure their cluster so take that with a giant grain of salt.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by cqqxo4zV46cp on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:29AM (#39465632)
Yep. Some obviously made their mind up before the page even rendered.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by meowface on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:04AM (#39468120)
Agreed, but I think they raise a fair point that some kind of automated testing probably should've existed to look for sudden major changes in prompt -> output production between versions, with lots of prompt test cases. Maybe this testing did exist but this problem just didn't surface, for some reason?
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by FridgeSeal on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:45PM (#39474385)
> so my guess is the wrong precision was used in some number of GPUs

Well we wouldn’t have to guess if their PM wasn’t so pointlessly vague would we?

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by FridgeSeal on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:44PM (#39474371)
If that’s what it was, they’ve done a fabulously bad job of conveying that, and then made no attempt to dig into why _that_ happened. Which, again, is like going “well it broke because it broke”, not even so much as a “this can happen because some bit of hardware had a cosmic bit flip and freaked out, generally happens with a probability of 1:x”.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by drpossum on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:47AM (#39463970)
You have high expectations of the people who you would typically run across in this space.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by ben_w on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:39AM (#39465718)
"More technically, inference kernels produced incorrect results when used in certain GPU configurations."

As someone who learned to read in part with the Commodore 64 user manual telling me about PEEK and POKE while I was actually in primary school, I think you're greatly overstating what primary school children write about in their holidays.

Snark aside, is their message vague? Sure. But more words wouldn't actually tell us more unless they also published a lot more about their setup — "we were casting float16 to uint16 on line 249 of server_config.c" isn't going to really help either.

Also, here's a recent security update from Apple to compare against: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT214056

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by FridgeSeal on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:41PM (#39474333)
Those at least link back to a CVE, which often does have all the gory technical details.

I think your counter-example swings too far in the other direction. Nobody expects a git-diff of the fix, but a solid explanation of the whys and wherefore’s isn’t unreasonable. Cloudflare does, fly.io does, etc etc.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by lynx23 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:46AM (#39465774)
Well, the YouTube app ChangeLog on iOS uses the same template since years: "fixed space-time continuum". This is a trend, to pretend that users are too dumb to understand the complexity of things, so just do some handwaving and thats it.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by jstarfish on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:13PM (#39475653)
Those splines don't reticulate themselves, you know.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by sam0x17 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @07:40AM (#39466226)
case in point: one of the root system prompts leaked out recently and it's pretty clear the "laziness" on a number of fronts is directly because of the root system prompt.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by fzzzy on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:23AM (#39466666)
I know about the leaked prompts and the laziness issues, but haven't read the prompt. What specifically about the prompt changes do you feel have led to laziness?
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by EchoChamberMan on Thursday February 22, 2024 @09:08AM (#39467254)
The way companies choose to portray themselves is a rather unreliable way of predicting their actions.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by stravant on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:02AM (#39464454)
There are surely reasonable ways to smoke test changes to the extent that they would catch the issue that came up here.

E.g.: Have a gauntlet of 20 moderate complexity questions with machine checkable characteristics in the answer. A couple may fail incidentally now and then but if more than N/20 fail you know something's probably gone wrong.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by mike_hearn on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:46AM (#39465083)
Reading between the lines a bit here, it would probably require more specialized testing infrastructure than normal.

I used to be an SRE at Google and I wrote up internal postmortems there. To me, this explanation feels a lot like they are trying to avoid naming any of their technical partners, but the most likely explanation for what happened is that Microsoft installed some new GPU racks without necessarily informing OpenAI or possibly only informing part of their ops team, and that this new hardware differed in some subtle way from the existing hardware. Quite possibly that means a driver bug, or some sort of hardware incompatibility that required a workaround. Certainly, they would not want to be seen publicly attacking Nvidia or Microsoft given the importance of these two partners, so keeping it high level would certainly be for the best. Virtually. None of openai's customers would be able to use any further technical detail anyway, and they may still be working out a testing strategy that would allow them to detect changes in the hardware mix that unexpectedly cause regressions without necessarily any software deployments being involved.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by rcbdev on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:00AM (#39466425)
This is the most grounded take and what I think probably happened as well.

For companies this size, with these valuations, everything the public is meant to see is heavily curated to accommodate all kinds of non-technical interests.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by whyever on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:15AM (#39464529)
In this case, it was a problem with tokenization, which is deterministic.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by pests on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:19PM (#39472572)
We know more about NNs then you think. You are vastly underestimating the field and what knowledge we have.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by mock-possum on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:20PM (#39473418)
“We don’t understand why neural networks work” is a myth. It’s not a miracle, it’s just code, and you can step through it to debug it the same way you would any other program.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by zdimension on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:37PM (#39474303)
You can step-debug a Python program using Windbg but it won't tell you a lot about what's happening since every line is hundreds of CPython API calls.

Sure, you can "step through" a neural network but all you'll ever see are arrays of meaningless floats moving around.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by laborcontract on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @09:51PM (#39462596)
The explanation is definitely unsatisfying. If I had to guess it was an issue with quantization.

OpenAI moves so quickly with their product and doesn't seem to be shy about quickly pushing changes to prod. There are too many times to count that, using ChatGPT, I've seen the frontend changing before my eyes or seen responses change as backend modifications are pushed.

On one hand it's refreshing to see their lack of aversion to push changes. On the other hand, it leads to probably one of the most unpredictable experiences I've had using any consumer product.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by p10_user on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:42PM (#39462974)
Does the API offer "fixed" models that don't change? I was under the impression they did.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by Rastonbury on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:30AM (#39464244)
I find that the most annoying and borderline unethical, hiding changes and nerfs behind the fact the output is probalistic especially when I'm paying the same amount for the product and others are paying for and using it in production. As many have mentioned, GPT-4 ability to code is not the same as 6-8 months ago
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by jorticka on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:04AM (#39464463)
So stop paying then.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by MVissers on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:33AM (#39465308)
Stop paying for chatgpt and use platform.openai.com instead to pick your model for consistency.

I’m still using the original gpt-4-3.14 model.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by nomel on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @09:21PM (#39462371)
> inference kernels produced incorrect results when used in certain GPU configurations.

Seems pretty clear. A good interpretation is that they had a test escape for certain GPU configs.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:10PM (#39462724)
I had the exact opposite reaction. I am in no way an AI expert (or novice for that matter), but I generally have an understanding of how tokenization works and how LLMs parse text strings into a series of tokens. Thus, I thought this paragraph was particularly well-written in a manner that explained pretty clearly what happened, but in a manner accessible to a layperson like me:

> In this case, the bug was in the step where the model chooses these numbers. Akin to being lost in translation, the model chose slightly wrong numbers, which produced word sequences that made no sense.

I liked this because when I first saw the example word salads I was so impressed by them - they look to be syntactically correct, but semantically they're gibberish. But knowing the basics of how LLMs choose the next token let me imagine some bugs where the "lookup table" if you will of word-to-token or vice versa (and I realize that may not be exactly the best analogy) was slightly offset.

Further, this sentence, "More technically, inference kernels produced incorrect results when used in certain GPU configurations." led me to understand how this could make it out into production - I'm sure ChatGPT has to be using tons of different GPUs in different configs to handle their volume, so it's understandable to me that their was a new matrix of config settings + code that made this bug show up.

I don't say any of the above to "excuse" OpenAI, but I also don't think they need any "excusing" to begin with. I don't think this was an unforgivable bug, and I appreciate them being so quick to explain what happened.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by ummonk on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @11:44PM (#39463350)
No, that just explains the symptom of the bug, not the underlying bug, how it came about, and how they can prevent it from happening again.

"More technically, inference kernels produced incorrect results when used in certain GPU configurations" has zero technical detail. The only information it is providing us is that the bug only showed up in some GPU configurations.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by PeterisP on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:47AM (#39465373)
I feel that it does have relevant technical detail - as far as I understand, any inference kernel is "supposed to" give the same outputs anyways, so if it produces incorrect results in certain GPU configurations, that indicates some flaw in the GPU/microcode/driver in some new hardware they introduced.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by chime on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:03PM (#39462686)
I hope I'm allowed to share GPT output here because I asked GPT4 to explain OpenAI's postmortem message and this is what it said:

> Large language models (LLMs) like GPT operate using statistics to predict the next word in a sentence. Think of it like a highly sophisticated version of your phone's autocorrect that predicts what you're going to type next, but on a much larger scale.

> The system represents words as numbers, or "tokens," as part of its internal language. It uses these tokens to generate text by selecting them based on how likely they are to come after what's already been written.

> On February 20, 2024, an update meant to improve the system introduced a glitch in the part of the model that picks out these numbers. Imagine trying to grab a red marble from a bag without looking and accidentally grabbing a blue one instead—similarly, the model grabbed the wrong tokens.

> Because of this, the system started spewing out words that didn't make sense together. It's like if your autocorrect suddenly started inserting random, incorrect words into your sentences.

> The technical side of the bug involved something called "inference kernels," which are part of the system's operations. When used with certain types of graphics processing units (GPUs)—special hardware to process data—the kernels didn't work properly.

> Once the error was spotted, a correction was made to the system. After the fix, everything went back to normal, and the model resumed generating coherent responses.

It would be better if they elaborated on what "certain GPU configurations" meant because that's basically the central piece here.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by 12_throw_away on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:35PM (#39462910)
Dunno about "allowed", but this post adds no signal and lots of noise to the discussion.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by refulgentis on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:10PM (#39462727)
People do it, and it's not against the rules: but, it has died down asymptotically. Though I did see a couple top comments that hid it surviving for ~4 hours this week.

It usually gets downvoted for banal aspects, but ones I've come to agree are important:

- oftentimes it's a lightly edited copy-and-paste of an attempt to summarize an article.

- even with edits, they're extremely long (this is edited, and its 250 words, about 1 page and 1/2 my browser viewport at 4K)

- usually off-topic because it's too broadly on-topic, i.e. its a summary of the article - ex. here, it isn't germane to the comment it's replying to other than 'if you want more info from them, ask what GPUs' -- it's unlikely the commenter needed the whole article ELI5'd to them in reply to their observation they'd like more info

Sort of "grey goo" for conversation, even with best intentions and editing applied.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by grafporno on Wednesday February 21, 2024 @10:23PM (#39462826)
What's the point in posting this? There's no additional information in there.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by iforgotpassword on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:02AM (#39464064)
To be honest

> On February 20, 2024, an optimization to the user experience

At that point, about 10 words in, I already wanted to stop reading because it starts with the "we only wanted the best for our customers" bullshit newspeak. Anyone else going off on that stuff too? I'm pretty much already conditioned to expect whatever company is messaging me that way to take away some feature, increase pricing, or otherwise piss me off. In that case it was "not give any interesting detail at all".

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by renonce on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:50AM (#39464722)
That sounds like a good use case for GPT. A GPT that automatically highlights such corporate speak and hints “WARNING: bullshit ahead”. I’m 100% sure it’s technically very easy to engineer such a model.

Do you think OpenAI’s superalignment will ever allow you to make such a model?

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by passwordoops on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:21AM (#39465253)
I think Q* was going to provide exactly this. And a unicorn that poops ice cream for everyone
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by nottorp on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:04AM (#39465460)
... but on the contrary, all the public services are programmed to bullshit you.

Every time I ask a question, the answer could be 3x smaller. Even if it's right and not a hallucination.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by jstarfish on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:24PM (#39475733)
You don't need a whole fucking model for this, you just need to invoke the right arcana.

Try:

> Act as a professional skeptic. Assess the passage for any deceptive, manipulative, or dishonest elements, including instances of doublespeak, inconsistency, fraud, disingenuity, deception, or sophistry:

It works on ChatGPT 3.5 as long as you're not trying to ask it questions about the Talmud. That will quickly devolve into handwavy "well, it's historically complex and difficult to understand" bullshit.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by renonce on Friday February 23, 2024 @06:22AM (#39479290)
That prompt looks great. I tried it on OpenAI's incident response and got: (only last paragraph taken for brievity)

> ... > In conclusion, while the passage does provide a basic account of the incident, its lack of detail, reliance on jargon, and vague explanations leave room for skepticism regarding the severity of the issue, the transparency of the response, and the effectiveness of preventative measures. A more thorough and less technical explanation could have mitigated some of these concerns.

Cloudflare's postmortem: (https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-outage-on-june-21-202...)

> In summary, the passage does not exhibit overt deception, manipulation, or dishonesty. Cloudflare's statement seems to be a forthright attempt to explain what happened, accept responsibility, and outline steps to prevent future incidents. The inclusion of technical details and the acknowledgment of their error reflect a commitment to transparency, even if the promotional content at the end might seem slightly incongruent with the preceding apology and explanation.

Now the thing is to make a fast and reliable plugin that automatically puts the warning on the webpage and shame these corporates

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by bjackman on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:51AM (#39464381)
I don't a the problem with this communication, except they just shouldn't call it a "postmortem".

In a medical setting this is equivalent to saying "the patient was coughing up blood, and now they're dead". It's relaying some potentially useful info, and I guess it's _technically_ a post-mortem analysis but it doesn't fit expectations for the phrase!

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by gtirloni on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:03AM (#39464458)
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by bjackman on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:08AM (#39464484)
Yeah that's what I'm referring to. This isn't a postmortem as described in that book! This is just "it was broken, and then we fixed it". Which is fine, it's good to acknowledge that. Just don't call it a PM!
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by tomas789 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:57AM (#39464423)
It is an industry standard word by now.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by mbel on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:04AM (#39464465)
Standard word which implies some level of analysis into causes of the incident. This brief note doesn’t live up to industry practice either.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by prmoustache on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:44AM (#39465061)
The standard imply analysis and measures taken for similar issues to not happen.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by cfn on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:29AM (#39464970)
I don't see the issue, in this type of software a one off bug in tokenization, for example, would create the type of nonsense people saw. That would make sense given their high level explanation.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by rmbyrro on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:52AM (#39465401)
"in certain GPU configurarions" gives a hint for why it wasn't caught in automated testing.

It looks like it was a mandelbug, which is hard to catch in a test environment.

Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by mavamaarten on Thursday February 22, 2024 @06:28AM (#39465618)
Honestly, I don't think we're entitled to a deep technical write-up. We are users of their product, they messed something up, and that's it. Unless they signed an SLA agreement, it's just shit that happens. They don't have to give a technical view into their internal kitchen if they don't want to.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by pfsalter on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:23AM (#39466675)
The biggest problem is that if you're using this in production then it could cause problems. It's not like a traditional outage where you get a load of 503 errors, the system appears to be working correctly but generates gibberish. If you're using this in a chat bot you could be liable for things it's saying...
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by Zetobal on Thursday February 22, 2024 @08:45AM (#39466962)
FP is not deterministic across GPU generations. They basically say with a lot of mambo jambo that they deployed code on the wrong GPU architecture.
Re:OpenAI postmortem – Unexpected responses from ChatGPT by jasonjmcghee on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:41AM (#39468717)
Huh. Thought it was pretty clear. I read it as:

~ "We tried a new optimization technique that modifies how next token candidates are chosen and there was a bug."

That would definitely produce the behavior people saw and makes sense.