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Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by bagels on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:21PM (#39377500)
One hour talk, mostly going over the history of machine proofs, and machine assisted proofs.

Conclusions (from slides at 49:56)

Computers by themselves still seem unlikely to resolve major mathematical problems on their own.

However, they are increasingly being used to generate (sic) assist human mathematicians in a variety of creative ways, beyond just brute-force case checking or computation.

For instance, we have seen they can be useful at generating conjectures or uncovering intriguing mathematical phenomena.

Automated provers could also be used to explore the space of proofs itself, beyond the small set of "human-generatable" proofs that often require one to stay close to other sources of intuition, such as existing literature or connections to other ways of thinking.

While AI technology shows great potential, in the immediate term, I expect it to have the most impact on tasks peripheral to mathematical research rather than central to it, such as automatically summarizing large amounts of literator or suggesting related work.

Proof formalization continues to make steady improvements in speed and ease of use. The "de Brujin factor" (the ratio between the difficulty of writing a correct formal proof and a correct informal proof) is still well above one (I estimate ~ 20), but dropping. Once AI integration takes place, this factor could potentially drop below one, which would be transformative to our field.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Sakos on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:34PM (#39377599)
On that note, I've been using ChatGPT to (re-)teach myself mathematical induction and working with proofs. It's like having my own tutor. There is huge potential here just for helping people learn new topics and skills.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by SOLAR_FIELDS on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:04PM (#39377850)
I really wish I had ChatGPT when I was teaching myself programming. I wouldn’t have failed university programming courses and would have been in the workforce years faster.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Sakos on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:18PM (#39377973)
Absolutely. I've been teaching myself Haskell and C++ too. For the first time in my life, learning is fun and not a dire struggle every step of the way (particularly as somebody with ADHD).

Need to know how to handle building a C++ project or dependencies? No longer have to go through dozens of posts on Reddit or DO or pages upon pages of documentation. I can just ask, then focus on what I actually want to learn.

Confused about some bizarre syntax in Haskell that gives me nothing on Google? Just ask. Don't understand how a function is constructed? Don't need to figure out what the correct terms are in what combination to find out what I'm looking at. Want a step by step explanation? Easy.

Even though it's far from perfect and I have plenty to complain about, it's already a valuable part of my everyday life with its impact on how I learn new things and experiment.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by empath-nirvana on Thursday February 15, 2024 @06:43AM (#39381557)
It's been _incredibly_ useful for bringing new Rust devs up to speed here.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by bongodongobob on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:30PM (#39378058)
With all due respect, if you couldn't get a passing grade in intro programming courses I'm not sure how much GPT would have helped. Additionally, if college was the first time getting your feet wet in programming, you were likely already years behind the curve.

I'm not trying to be nasty, but for loops, variables, the concept of program flow etc are very elementary concepts that many children and teens are fully capable of teaching themselves, even pre-internet.

I think ChatGPT could pass any intro programming course so I have a hunch that it's just going to lead to lots of cheating and poor programming skills.

Did you end up sticking it out? Grats if so and you're probably better off for not having had ChatGPT hold your hand. For me, the temptation to just have it pass my classes for me would have been way too tempting. It's too good at boilerplate programming which is every programming 101 project.

"Write me an employee tracking system in java." Change up the comments and boom done with the assignment.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by maroonblazer on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:38PM (#39378104)
When I was learning programming I was grateful for Stackoverflow and other internet resources. I couldn't imagine learning as quickly as I did without those resources.

It's the same with LLMs. Now I don't have to wait hours or days for someone on SO or Reddit to read and respond to my question. Or spend who knows how long Googling for a similar - but not the SAME - question and trying to bend their solution to my problem.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by radiator on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:58PM (#39378232)
How is this better than a mathematics book with exercises (and solutions to them at the end or in a second book)?
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by pests on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:27PM (#39378416)
How do you ask a textbook a question? Exercises are great until the student is stuck at some "core concept" they could simply ask or explain their confusion and get a direct answer.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by eru on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:10PM (#39378307)
GPT very naturally encourages you to write out questions. That by itself can be useful for learning. You can even get answers for your questions.

And for a well trodden basic technique like mathematical induction, GPT is probably 'smart' enough to be able to explain everything.

Basically, most questions a beginner might have are already covered in something like Stack Overflow, so GPT 'just' has to give you the right cached answer, instead of coming up with new thoughts of its own. (This is very hand-wave-y.)

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Sakos on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:23PM (#39378393)
Isn't it obvious? I can't have a conversation with an exercise and the solution. ChatGPT has helped me uncover gaps in my mathematical knowledge because I can ask it questions about what something means, how something was arrived at, or how it works. Sometimes proofs involve logical "jumps" that aren't immediately or intuitively obvious, or require some mathematical maturity that I otherwise wouldn't be aware of. Something I would've otherwise needed a tutor for to determine.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by thaumasiotes on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:23PM (#39378392)
> to (re-)teach myself mathematical induction

Induction is just set membership. Every inductive proof looks like this:

1. There's a set, S.

2. There's a scalar value, e, in S.

3. e has property p.

4. There is a function, f, from S to S.

5. f preserves property p.

6. Every element of S can be reached from e by repeated application of f. (Often because S is defined to consist of e plus f(x) for any x in S.)

---------

7. Therefore, every element of S has property p.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Sakos on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:25PM (#39378407)
Abstractly, sure. That doesn't help me at all when doing any of the exercises.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by rvz on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @10:28PM (#39378766)
I wouldn't be so reliant on AI black-boxes like ChatGPT to learn anything from medicine, law or even mathematics and you don't even trust if its outputs are even correct.

Terrance Tao doesn't even trust its outputs either and can verify if it is outputting nonsense that may look 'correct' in your eyes.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by pfdietz on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @11:23PM (#39379083)
Ah, but the nice thing about constructing formal proofs is you can immediately tell if the output is correct.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by practal on Thursday February 15, 2024 @10:59AM (#39384288)
Yes, but you also need to make sure the input is correct! For example, your idea of automatically formalising a paper needs to somehow make sure that the result means the same as the paper.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Sakos on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @10:41PM (#39378842)
I don't blindly believe everything it says. I've caught it making mistakes plenty of times. But there's simply no going back anymore. There's no replacing what it can do and the kind of workflow it offers.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by 38 on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @07:41PM (#39377657)
> However, they are increasingly being used to generate (sic) assist human mathematicians in a variety of creative ways, beyond just brute-force case checking or computation.

can you fix this? even with the (sic) I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by tehnub on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @08:01PM (#39377823)
I think it's just that the word "generate" isn't supposed to be there:

    However, they are increasingly being used to assist human mathematicians in a variety of creative ways, beyond just brute-force case checking or computation.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by bagels on Thursday February 15, 2024 @01:13AM (#39379669)
That's literally what the slide says. Your guess is as good as mine, and my guess is that there's an extra word, "generate"
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by Animats on Thursday February 15, 2024 @02:42AM (#39380111)
Probably. The talk covers many computer-assisted proofs where the big problem was a huge case analysis. The cases have to be generated and machine checked. The proof of the four-color theorem (1,482 cases) was the first major proof like that. It upset many mathematicians.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by senfiaj on Thursday February 15, 2024 @07:15AM (#39381773)
Why did it upset? Machines are just tools. Is using something beyond a pen and a paper considered a cheating. There are some problems where the easiest way is to just to use brute force. The God's number (the maximum moves to solve the Rubik's cube from any state) was calculated with brute force. If you can formally verify an algorithm I see no problem.
Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by nicf on Thursday February 15, 2024 @11:56AM (#39385063)
I'm a mathematician, although I'm too young to have been around for this. I feel like I might be able to add a little cultural perspective, though.

My impression is that most of the people who were "upset" didn't think that the result was false, or even that the work that went into the Four Color Theorem didn't constitute a proof. It's more that we mathematicians tend to like a proof more when it helps us understand why a fact is true rather than just that a fact is true. So an argument that ends with "and then we checked thousands of cases on a computer and it turned out they all worked" feels unsatisfying, since it feels like it doesn't fully explain what's going on.

Re:Terence Tao, "Machine Assisted Proof" [video] by baq on Thursday February 15, 2024 @03:59AM (#39380524)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

> in full: sic erat scriptum, "thus was it written"