Of course the suicide right is going to be higher, but you shouldn't compare it against the part of the population who is happily married, you would have to compare it to the people who are desperately unhappy in their marriage and don't get divorced. At the end of my marriage I still dearly loved my wife, but hadn't been happy for years and I was wishing for death to give me a noble exit from a situation I couldn't see a way out of myself.
It depends a lot. Very little time in court (no fault divorce, informal agreement re money, and child just stayed with me) and the family courts here are secret so will not comment on that courts, but as for society it depends a lot.
My own experience is that no one who knows me at all well blames me. Some of my ex-wife's friends do - the ones who do not know me mostly. Why should I care what they think? My friends have been supportive, so have my (extended) family.
The only thing that annoys me is that she has been playing on racial stereotypes to gain sympathy. More that people are ignorant enough of other cultures to believe her uncritically than anything else.
I had to sign a paper where I agreed I committed all sorts of "faults" just for the court to process the thing and make the divorce official. To me it doesn't matter -- the legal system of the UK is archaic regardless. A divorce is nothing more than a contract agreeing to share financial and child responsibilities.
They were quite uncooperative as well to get the paperwork necessary to register the divorce elsewhere in the EU, but that might have breen Brexit.
The law was changed from 2022 (I delayed starting my divorce proceedings by a few months to benefit from it) and we now have no-fault divorce. Essentially, all it needs is for one party to want to divorce and the a certain lapse of time after you married. The only grounds for opposing it are very narrows ones like jurisdiction.
The divorce case is separate from those over money and children which are also optional. You can just have informal agreements over both unless someone wants to go to court. That is why I spent very little time in court - in fact the divorce itself happened with need to attend hearings with the application made through the family court website.
Even before the change judges would try and find for an allegation of a fault (usually "unreasonable behaviour") and most lawyers advised clients not to contest divorces. One lawyer I consulted told me that in the previous 20 years he dealt with one contested divorce (contesting the end of the marriage that is, obviously going to court over child and financial arrangements is common).
On the other hand I have come across many cases where the less affluent former spouse (especially one who did not work while married to look after the children) does not get a fair amount of child support and these are mostly women. Not a problem in my case as I was the one who was earning and the primary parent.
The biggest criticism I would make is not of the courts, but society and the police do not take domestic abuse of men seriously. They also do not take emotional abuse such as controlling behaviour seriously despite it now being a crime. This is pervasive - the Crown Prosecution Service classifies domestic abuse as "violence against women and girls" and then mentions in passing that men can be victims too (40% of violent abuse victims, in fact, but you would not know that from their manuals).
People can be awful to each other. Gender doesn’t matter.
I also think it's too early to really look at these rates. Of course many women would be happy they weren't destitute when they got married during a time when women couldn't have bank accounts. Of course men would feel put out when they were used to having everything handled by their wife and existed during a time where joint custody was not so common.
I'd like to see these studies again in 20 or so years when most people surveyed got married out of commitment instead of life necessity.
We are already there, what kind of world are you imagining? The need for women to marry was removed 50-60 years ago in the west, there hasn't been a necessity to marry in a really long time, you might have some really old couples left from the time before that but it wouldn't affect statistics much.
There are definitely difficulties, but no need to throw out the baby with bathwater, if done right a partner & children are one of the biggest joys & sources of meaning for life.
It was inspiring to see a couple who actively supported each other's hobbies and careers, who engaged with each others' professional communities.
For me, my spouse is someone I can implicitly rely on and vice versa. We are a team working towards our shared purposes, but we are still individuals. We each have skills that make the others life easier. It's a lot easier to get a ride from a spouse than from a friend, and a spouse will be more available to help tend to sickness and injury. That sounds emotionless, but of course emotions and emotional support are important too.
For me, having a spouse where we have compatible ideas on children, money, climate, travel, and most things is like an easy button for life. Research and problem solving is easier with two people. Decision making can be harder though.
If you marry someone who doesn't have compatible ideas, there's going to be a lot more conflict and a lot more deep compromise, and that may not be as appealing. And, of course, people change, and exiting a long term commited relationship comes with trauma, so there's risk. Maybe none of this feels appealing to you, and that's fine. There's some social and legal pressure to marry for lots of reasons, but we live in a world full of social and legal pressures, and you should reject those pressures if they don't feel right to you.
Raising children is a whole other thing. I don't think people should be pressured into it, and it's best to be on the same page as a potential spouse before considering marriage, otherwise one spouse is likely to have to make a big compromise and that's not great. Personally, I find raising children to benefit from a team approach, but it's not required and a marriage is just one way to form a child raising team.
But I understand, however I hope you find it, in which way works for you, it does make life much richer.
For me family is one of them & buddhism another one.
If I can give advice, the easiest way to experience meaning is to serve & help others. Easiest is to do voluntary work in obvious helpful things like food serving etc. Something where you just enjoy & give and not think deeper about what the point of it all is.
I think there is quite a bit of nihilism in Western evolutionary materialism (all our feelings are just side effect of evolution). But that's a very limited view on reality. Not sure if that's also part of your experience, but I do see this cause similar feelings to smart & technical people around.
Sorry if this is a common expression.
I believe the idea expressed in ‘appetite comes with eating’ is that your desire to indulge in an activity is correlated (caused even) with that activity. IE skydivers will likely have a larger appetite or desire for skydiving than a layman.
In a larger context I believe cjbgkagh is arguing that women can retain an advantageous position in a marriage by pretending or presenting unhappiness because exiting a marital contract would be an especially poor outcome her partner.
I'm happily married, and in the sense of being counter-cultural would be in completely the other end of the spectrum (very conservative about family, intend on having 6-8 kids that I will cherish even when they're adults).
That said, I think you've hit the nail on the head about "happy wife, happy life".
It's important to basically dedicate your life to being in service to her, but on the flip side it's important for her to do the same.
This level of dedication is almost counter-cultural in a sense, because you're not putting yourself first, but it's absolutely worth it in the long run.
On a visceral level, you feel always loved, always important, always worthy.
> intend on having 6-8 kids that I will cherish even when they're adults
There's a wonderful Mike Tyson quote that everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. I assure you that it's quite a rare individual who gets married and has kids with the intent of despising their spouse and estranging themselves from their children. Sometimes it works out, and other times it doesn't.
If you ignore the romance, and only consider the practicalities, there is no good reason to get married. It doesn't offer significant rights or benefits and mostly puts you at risk and restricts your option.
Me, I've been married, and I know I'll likely do it again. Not for personal gain, but because I'm a fool who believes in love.
Why not just find someone who is already content living their life single but enjoys the added social aspects of a relationship? That plus someone where those social aspects happen naturally without a lot of using the finite motivational energy.
Then there's no expectation or perceived responsibility to have a sort of dependency relationship, and the happy social reinforcing moments happen naturally.
The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Even happy and independent people have ups and downs, and can benefit from someone enthusiastically helping them promote their happiness.
It is a win win win for everyone involved.
The recipient of support is even happier, the supporter gets to enjoy the process of making the other happy, and then the supporter get the company of a very happy person.
Ideally this is bidirectional with each partner playing both roles.
It doesn't use finite motivational energy. It creates net positive energy.
Being a doormat to your partner is a great way to end up miserable.
You will have arguments and challenges. Those are good things and sometimes it needs to be said and worked out .
Marriage was always a partnership and a business in the past. Treat it as such anx you'll find it works way better.
It is true, but an incomplete instruction for life happiness . What more do you want from a platitude?
Good luck having a happy life with a miserable wife.
It seems crazy to me that you think people are incapable of doing things to add or detract from the happiness of others.
If I treat my wife with kindness and care in the morning, she will be much happier than if I hypothetically berated or beat her.
I think that is absolutely true. Hopefully by marriage, partners have some practice and success promoting each other's happiness.
Heck in most cases you might even be getting benchmarked against a fictional figure who exists only in her imaginations.
The more you do, more that fictional figure gets better than you, and you are expected jump over the bar she just raised. Sooner or later you will burnout and she will hate you for being weak compared to the hero that exists in her mind.
Today my toddler asked for candy and my wife almost gave her a piece (it's 7:45am). I said no. When the wife rebuked, I said, "stop, you're going to make our daughter fat like you." Mad her piping mad but guess what?
Happiness comes from within and you know what makes me happy? Having a healthy family that makes good choices. The happiest wives are those that get gentlely pushed around from time to time.
So in short, stop being a push over and maybe your wife won't leave you for a man that does.
When you don't want to do something, but you also don't want to be blamed for not doing it, you can transfer the blame to someone who isn't there.
Boss wants to go out drinking after work which is his idea of 'team building' but you don't feel like it right now? "Well gee boss I'd love to come, but my wife's expecting me home by 7pm. Happy wife happy life, right?"
About 75% of the time when you hear people in the workplace saying "happy wife happy life" what they actually mean is "thanks for the offer but no thanks, and don't bother trying to cajole or peer-pressure me"
(Veterans at transferring blame will go even further, transferring blame to abstract concepts like 'market conditions' and 'company policy' )
Not at all, for all they know you're living some 1950s lifestyle where your wife has dinner on the table just as you get home, and it'll be cold if you're late. Or if they prefer, they can imagine you're a progressive modern father, going home to change diapers and help with bedtime. Or they can imagine you're deeply in love, and eager not to disappoint your best friend in the whole world.
There really is nothing abusive about a man saying he likes his wife to be happy. Making an effort to make the other person happy and them making an effort to make you happy is the whole point of a relationship, isn't it?
This matters in business too.
If people want to have a long-lasting and successful marriage they need to be clear-eyed and pragmatic about it. The fact that Hollywood makes a fortune selling romantic stories has not helped!
Finding good business partners is like dating
It works very well for me. We both appreciate each other and actively make an effort to make one another happy.
I’m often in awe that we can both propose equal rights and responsibilities and sympathetically treat forty-year-old adults as children in these situations, but only if they belong to one sex. The other sex gets disgust or at best pity.
If you’re a man in the US: You. Are. On. Your. Own.
It's true across Africa. It's true across Asia (see: China, Japan for two very prominent examples). It's true in India. It's true across all of the Islamic world. It's commonly true in most of Europe (and absolutely true across Eastern Europe). Canada is quite similar to the US. It's true across Latin America. And it's true in the US.
When it's that comprehensive, spanning most of the human population across wildly different cultures, it's not society, it's biology. Society - cultures - are a production of that biology, reinforcing, not the other way around. It's not recent, it's ancient; it wasn't originated by humanity through society, nature organized humanity in a way that assisted survival.
Good thing they used that autonomy to build... everything.
Yet, from another study
“In the United States, the rate of suicide among persons who are divorced or separated is usually reported as about 2.4 times greater than the suicide rate for married persons. ”
And
“For every one divorced woman who dies by suicide, there are nine divorced men who do so.”
Seems like we are managing against the wrong metric.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/acquainted-the-night...