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Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:09PM (#39181788)
>They get paid massive bonuses based on numbers their stores hit.

Isn't that ... good?

The demographic in every region or neighborhood is different and has different tastes, incomes and budgets, so it's your job as store manager to identify the needs of that demographic, and order merchandise and organize it on shelves, run sales, etc. in order to move as much of it as possible to maximize sales and profits. Sort of like targeted advertising but IRL and less privacy invasive.

Paying based on this seems like the only way to incentivize this performance.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by LegitShady on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:27PM (#39182029)
In university before co-op, many years ago, I worked for home depot part time. the line employee profit share was really bad. the management profit share was better. They understaffed my department for long periods of time to make their numbers look better. They were making $15k/day in profit on my department but they wouldn't schedule a second employee so that there was someone there to help people when person #1 was on the saw, on the forklift, or covering lunch for the next department over too.

I quit mid june after I realized they weren't hiring/scheduling more staff for the summer even though every day was very busy, constantly running between helping customers and taking care of other things.

There are a lot of ways to make profit and show good metrics that aren't good for line employees.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:31PM (#39182086)
>There are a lot of ways to make profit and show good metrics that aren't good for line employees.

Sure, but this is in line with every major (European) tech company I ever worked at. Pay employees peanuts and pay senior mangers amazing, therefore you were incentivized not to do well as an IC, but to put up with bullshit and fight your way to climb the corporate ladder to management, and then exploit the other poor schmucks who come below you with the same perverse incentive structure.

Yes this leads to a huge turnover, unhappy workers, and to a lot of arguments, back-stabbings and fights. But their stocks were always rock solid and managers were always wealthy so I guess they saw that culture as a net win. It seems to be the M.O. with ever major company everywhere, I think it's called the "GE model".

Paying ICs at the bottom great wages and incentivizing them with stock, is mostly unique to US/SV and new-age software start-ups from the Google/Facebook era, but rare everywhere else.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by rightbyte on Monday January 29, 2024 @04:05PM (#39182579)
Ye it is strange that such anti-intuitive management style pays off. I have no clue why.

I got this feeling that what's most important for a Big Bad Company is to be able to get well of with management of other Big Bad Companies to be able to land contracts.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @04:13PM (#39182699)
>Ye it is strange that such anti-intuitive management style pays off. I have no clue why.

It works because it exploits several flaws in our society and in human psychology like greed, wealth inequality, conformity of the masses to cultural norms, fear of missing out/of being left out, and the crabs in the bucket mentality, which leads to a rat race to the bottom form which it's difficult to check yourself out as an individual if the majority does it.

This isn't something big bad corporations have created, it s just something that has existed for hundreds of years, they're just exploiting. The same mechanism and behaviors were in place during the communist rule in my home country 35+ years ago, when people were fighting to climb up the party ranks, because that's what gave you the best QoL. Now it's climbing the corporate ranks.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by tpm on Monday January 29, 2024 @05:47PM (#39183850)
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by ethbr1 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:44AM (#39187080)
> I have no clue why.

Because it's cheaper to compensate one manager 10x average (and get the best candidate) than pay more to hire an entire team of more skilled ICs.

FAANG gets away with it because they amortize their engineering costs over an extremely customer base. Which also multiplies the value in output quality difference.

Most companies are not building EC2 or BigTable.

And so... it makes more sense to hire minimal cost engineers, then corral them with a single high-cost manager.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by rightbyte on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @09:43AM (#39190615)
> Because it's cheaper to compensate one manager 10x average (and get the best candidate) than pay more to hire an entire team of more skilled ICs.

I don't think you get better managers by paying them more though, over some threshold. You'd probably just get more "competetive" managers in the meta game of becoming a manager. Like engineers at Google are not some elite just becouse they are paid more. Only athletics actually can be evaluated in an accurate enough manner I believe.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by ethbr1 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:50AM (#39192338)
I'm also suspicious it actually transfers to engineering orgs, especially with managers who don't have architect senses (or intuition).

But it's likely a direct transfer from sales or retail orgs, where it's very much measurable and true.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by acchow on Monday January 29, 2024 @06:41PM (#39184322)
Aren't stronger labor union protections supposed to lead to higher wages? How is it that European tech workers can't bargain for higher wages?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:11PM (#39184594)
>Aren't stronger labor union protections supposed to lead to higher wages?

Only for those at the lower end, usually at the expense of growth and opportunities for those at the higher end, but since those are fewer in number their votes are less important.

>How is it that European tech workers can't bargain for higher wages?

Because investors there don't have as much money, and those who do don't risk it starting tech companies. And also because Europe is not a single country with one law and one language, but 27+ with different laws and different languages, means scaling a business beyond the original country is difficult and expensive.

It's the US who's the exception in tech success, not EU for failing to match it.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 29, 2024 @08:36PM (#39185327)
> How is it that European tech workers can't bargain for higher wages?

The leverage a company has and the leverage a union has both come from the same place: A lack of alternatives. But then that's the problem.

If you have a competitive industry, the union can't demand much because the company's margins will be slim and they won't be able to give the union much without raising prices, losing customers to competitors and going out of business. This is actually fine because in that case workers still get the money in the form of lower consumer prices, but then it's not the union which is getting you the benefit.

Conversely, if the industry isn't competitive then the company will be a huge conglomerate with a lot of leverage against workers/consumers. They'll be big enough to exert political influence in the government and also big enough for the company's union to become infested with politics. In particular, the union knows where its leverage comes from, and it's workers with skills in high demand, so any union that doesn't keep them happy and keep them from moving to another company/industry is going to have to contend with a pissed off conglomerate with a lot of political influence. So the money goes to the people with high demand skills (or political connections) and the rank and file still get the scraps, but now it's even worse because lack of competition and high levels of organizational inefficiency means high prices when they go to buy things.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by danielscrubs on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:25AM (#39187644)
I haven’t seen any managers that worked themselves up from the bottom, in eu. A manager starts with an economic background and step in from the side. That coupled with free university means that programmers is not something that you look up too.
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by EnigmaFlare on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:25PM (#39186379)
Maybe that was fine? It's possible the customers were prepared to wait and would buy regardless, in which case why have extra staff to cover short gaps? It sounds like your personal complaint is that you had to spend your whole time at work working instead of standing around?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by LegitShady on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @12:58PM (#39207065)
nah customers complained all the time. You'd be helping a customer and have 2 other customer waiting, and other things to do including tidying up, cutting the saw, operating the forklift to bring down more product, etc. It was 8 hours of constantly being run around and having customers be frustrated because they were waiting for your help, and couldn't find anyone else, because there was no one else. Sometimes they'd go all the way to the other end of the store to find someone and they'd bring the electrical or plumbing guy over to ask questions about concrete and he'd just tell them to talk to me.

It sounds like you have never worked busy retail, more than anything else. You wouldn't accept your own job being that level of busy dealing with unserved and frustrated customers at that pace.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by EnigmaFlare on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:24PM (#39282898)
No doubt it was frustrating, but you said the managers' decisions were driven by numbers. So would they have ended up better or worse off with more staff? Surely they'd have more sales, and if that more than made up for the cost of another worker, they would have hired one. So why didn't they? Maybe it was a mistake and they actually weren't optimizing the profit for the department enough?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by klyrs on Monday January 29, 2024 @05:33PM (#39183688)
> Isn't that ... good?

For whom?

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @06:01PM (#39183970)
For everyone?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by klyrs on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:23PM (#39184710)
What do you mean by "everyone?" Do you include the floor workers who are paid so little that they need food stamps? How are they benefitting?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @08:11PM (#39185129)
Would they be better off if the managers were worse paid?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by klyrs on Monday January 29, 2024 @08:17PM (#39185183)
I can't help but notice that you shifted the goalpost subtly from "better for everyone" to "not worse for everyone" there.

If the pie was shared more fairly, then yes they would be better off and I daresay that their incentives would be better aligned with getting those numbers up. And yes, that would mean managers not pulling down millions.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by Shared404 on Monday January 29, 2024 @06:20PM (#39184138)
FWIW I've seen managers burn down stores by pushing their employees to far in chase of those numbers.

Perhaps it can work situationally, but I've not seen it anywhere I or any of my friends have worked.

Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:04PM (#39184540)
Managers burning out people chasing KPIs and promotions of their own careers, isn't anything new or exclusive to Walmart. I've seen it in every tech company I've ever worked at.
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by olddustytrail on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:17PM (#39184654)
Then why on earth did you suggest it was good for everyone?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by FirmwareBurner on Monday January 29, 2024 @07:27PM (#39184743)
Slipped my mind.
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by golergka on Monday January 29, 2024 @09:05PM (#39185548)
If the manager burns the store down, wouldn't his KPI plummet and he get the boot eventually?
Re:Why Walmart pays its truck drivers 6 figures by achenet on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:07AM (#39187900)
eventually... the delay between manager doing stupid action chasing KPI and store burning down may be large enough that the average manager is likely to burn the store down.

If your goal is long-term success, those incentives might be misaligned.