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Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by bovermyer on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:05PM (#38957128)
OK, the layoffs suck, and the whole "failed to realize the pandemic growth wasn't permanent" thing is getting way overplayed.

However, these are some crazy exit packages. Five months of salary? Health insurance through the end of 2024? That's a heck of a buffer.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by paxys on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:16PM (#38957317)
While the severance definitely makes things easier, layoff season is also a terrible time to look for jobs because there are like 300,000 other qualified candidates with big company credentials in the same situation as you. The cushion isn't a luxury but a necessity. In some jurisdictions it is legally required.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by pcthrowaway on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:24PM (#38957446)
I'm wondering if by "layoff season" you mean the first quarter, or the entire last 2 years?

January of last year had more than twice as many layoffs as any other month of the year, and the first quarter of '23 had nearly twice as many layoffs as the rest of the year combined. Not sure if we'll see the same trend this year, but it does seem like there have been an uncharacteristic number of layoffs this month already.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by emestifs on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:30PM (#38957566)
Consider the holidays in December as well. It's possible some layoffs were finalized but not enacted until after.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by YetAnotherNick on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:43PM (#38957788)
> In some jurisdictions it is legally required.

Which jurisdiction requires 5 months of salary?

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by Teledhil on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:00PM (#38958096)
For example, up to 12 months of salary in Spain (with 20 days of salary for each year at the company), if a layoff meets certain conditions (that are usually met). Up to 24 months (with 33 days per year) if the conditions are not met.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by paxys on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:50PM (#38957909)
Waives hand in general direction of Europe
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by fh973 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:02PM (#38958138)
Germany: not anywhere close. Typical is 0.5-1.0 monthly salaries per year of employment.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by kuschku on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:33PM (#38958586)
Die Kündigungsfrist beginnt bei 3 Monaten und geht schnell auf 2 Jahre hoch. FAANGs suspendieren ihre Mitarbeiter ab dem Punkt, wo die Kündigung mitgeteilt wurde, dementsprechend bekommt man üblicherweise die Kündigungsfrist ausbezahlt.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by Amezarak on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:15PM (#38958331)
Yeah. I got laid off a few months ago and I can’t even get an interview. Never had that problem before.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by emestifs on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:02PM (#38959033)
You're not alone. Many are seeing the same thing.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by xienze on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:58PM (#38958064)
> because there are like 300,000 other qualified candidates with big company credentials in the same situation as you

And to add insult to injury, there will inevitably be lots of sound bites from CEOs whining about a lack of engineering talent, so can we please raise H1B limits???

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by IshKebab on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:02PM (#38958135)
I keep hearing this on HN about companies abusing H1B, so I was like "ah cool must be easy to get a software job in America then; I'll have a go" (I live in the UK).

But then I actually looked at the H1B process. It's insane. Not only is there a limited lottery but it only happens once per year. It's not like you can get a job and then apply for a visa.

Is H1B abuse real or are are American HN's commenters way overplaying it?

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by hibikir on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:12PM (#38958295)
The current H1B system of limited visas has far more demand than there is supply, but it's easier to abuse by certain kinds of firms. For an American company trying to hire someone off the street that is living in the UK, the math is so bad few would try: In the real world, companies tend to only try with people that are already working for them. So if, say, Google had someone working off a UK office, and wanted to move them to the US, it's relatively OK if they don't do well in the lottery that year, because they still have an employee.

The abuse comes from companies built entirely on this: Imagine we are running a contracting company from some cheap country. We have 6000 consultants we'll be able to bill higher from the US. So we ask our US subsidiary to just file said 6000 applications. Only 2000 got accepted? Who cares! those 2000 people get moved to the US, and are now working for us, and then we contract them out to normal Enterprise companies at relatively low rates. It's not hard to claim this is abuse, as ultimately one wants to make applications for anyone with a pulse.

Some commentators are definitely overplaying it, but any way you look at it, the system is not necessarily working all that well, precisely because the cap is relatively low, the number of random Indian contractors that would like to move in is very high, and those intermediary companies are rarely great, but they have a big advantage in the system compared to a small company that just really wants to hire one guy, or wants to keep someone that came in with a student visa, and has been doing practical training.

Unfortunately there are so many competing interests that any kind of sensible immigration reform isn't going to happen, as getting the majority of the house and 2/3rds on the senate to agree on something this contentious is almost impossible, especially when one of the parties has people whose idea of the perfect number of immigrants is zero.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by vasco on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:17PM (#38958359)
It's both. A few companies have most of the H1B allocations through basically fraud and they hold it over those workers heads because they need a sponsor or lose their visa. https://www.livemint.com/news/world/us-says-some-companies-c...
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by octacat on Friday January 12, 2024 @08:43AM (#38967809)
They should reduce the probability for entries, that are submitted multiple times. So, if you apply to several companies, you still have the same chance as if you apply to one company.

Or just make companies to pay to win a slot ;)

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by gwbas1c on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:24PM (#38958466)
> Is H1B abuse real or are are American HN's commenters way overplaying it?

Yes and yes.

The long and short of it is that many companies don't want to pay market salaries, or have unreasonable expectations, and the H1B system basically lets a company hire at a lower salary than market salary.

The H1B system also impacts immigrants' job portability. An H1B employee is less likely to leave a bad job for a better job, thus H1B employees are more desirable because of the lock-in.

Edit: The other half is that a lot of people "age out" of tech for various reasons and like to point a finger. Working in tech at 40+ years old is very different in an industry that typically hires people in their 20s and 30s.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by kansface on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:19PM (#38958379)
In the broader industry, I've never seen anything that I would qualify as abuse but abuse is very real at certain firms that specialize in hiring H1Bs.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by Exoristos on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:24PM (#38958467)
Surely what's relevant is the number of H1B workers in the U.S., not how hard the process appears to be.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by int_19h on Friday January 12, 2024 @04:24AM (#38965900)
Former H1B here. The abuse is real, but what many people assume incorrectly is that it's perpetrated by FAANG companies. Those are actually pretty good places for an H1B to be, generally speaking (subject to the usual caveats wrt hostile management etc) - they pay the same they do to citizens, and it's very rare to see revocation of status used as a threat.

But if you look at the overall visa numbers from a few years ago, they are dominated not by FAANG, but by "consulting" companies like Infosys. Those are straight up sweatshops who squeeze everything they can out of their H1Bs while underpaying them (and thus also undermining the local market).

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by rqtwteye on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:34PM (#38957624)
This buffer evaporates very quickly in a bad job market as I learned in 2002 and 2003. I think the only "crazy" exit packages are when they throw dozens of millions after failed executives.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by scrapcode on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:13PM (#38957260)
I think it seems fair. Maybe forums are biased toward the negative, but it seems like the market is tough and it is taking even highly qualified individuals at least that amount of time to find something new.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by spacemadness on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:51PM (#38957918)
This forum seems swarming with people with an axe to grind against SV employees of late. As far as I can tell some people think they are well informed on the matter purely from following people on TikTok. Such as the “they only work 6 hours a week” crowd.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by rchaud on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:37PM (#38959490)
Not just that, the comments on these layoff posts seem to put engineering staff on some "un-fireable" pedestal but think of PMs, Sales and Marketing, Admin people as eternally expendable.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by cagenut on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:18PM (#38957350)
what does 'fair' have to do with anything
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by ryangs on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:25PM (#38957456)
Being 'fair' helps company relationships with current and future employees.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by bruce511 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:09PM (#38958242)
Does it though? In my experience any "credit" for fair behaviour disappears very fast. Employees don't really care about fairness, they care about themselves here and now.

Equally businesses see employees as disposable, and work to maximise short term profit, not fairness. There's generally a lack of trust in one, or both sides, and that results in poor behaviour from both sides that spirals.

Sure there are great companies to work for, but all their greatness is tossed aside as soon as a better offer comes along. Employees look out for #1. Employers do the same.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by int_19h on Friday January 12, 2024 @04:28AM (#38965926)
People generally like long-term stability and are willing to trade their loyalty in exchange for that, even to the point of turning down a more lucrative offer. Back when companies appreciated that, you had plenty of people with a stable employment at the same company for literally decades. But then this cycle was broken when employers started to treat their employees as disposable (all while still demanding at least token loyalty!) in pursuit of more profits - and they have succeeded in teaching the employees that any talk of loyalty from a business is virtually guaranteed to be a scam, so why would the latter ever take it seriously?

In short, this is not a "both sides" problem.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by scrapcode on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:38PM (#38957715)
One would like to hope that some of these companies act in a manner that when the shoe is on the other foot, and it is an employees market again, that they will be judged by their actions.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by maxioatic on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:29PM (#38958545)
I believe it's only five months of health insurance since it says "Five months of benefit continuation". It does also say "Continued access to Modern Health through the end of 2024", but Modern Health is a mental health platform.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by para_parolu on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:09PM (#38957191)
With such package I would voluntarily quit.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by theonething on Thursday January 11, 2024 @05:34PM (#38960374)
In this (tech) job market, I would not.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by ricardobeat on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:27PM (#38957504)
Nothing crazy about it if you compare to whats _required by law_ elsewhere. In the Netherlands you’ll get at least 3 months salary, possibly more if the layoffs were negotiated with a works council, an additional N months depending on your years of employment, and healthcare, well, is not tied to your job at all. Nothing extraordinary about it.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by xnx on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:40PM (#38957753)
Netherlands seems to do a lot of things right, and I know the US isn't making all the right tradeoffs, but lack of safety net is one of the reasons US pay is higher.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by rchaud on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:39PM (#38959527)
US pay is higher because there is a bottomless pool of VC money in California, not because of onerous hiring regulations.

Discord is wildly unprofitable, it is held up entirely through investor largesse.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by matchbok on Thursday January 11, 2024 @08:15PM (#38962201)
Things someone who has never built a company says.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by huytersd on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:30PM (#38957552)
It’s not that crazy considering all the layoffs are happening at the same time and new openings are slim. I wouldn’t be surprised if almost everyone laid off have to use all the buffer provided before they can find another job.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by mensetmanusman on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:03PM (#38958155)
it takes six months to get hired for many.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by renewiltord on Thursday January 11, 2024 @02:41PM (#38957758)
A friend worked at Google. Pretty lazy guy. A few months salary to quit, but 8 months to wind down what he worked on. In truth, one year's pay to do nothing. He, predictably, did nothing.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by bityard on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:10PM (#38958262)
This reminds me of the show Silicon Valley, there is a subplot where one of the main characters is unassigned from his own project but not given a new team or project. Just, unassigned. He wanders around the building and eventually makes his way to the roof where he runs into a small crowd of other "unassigned" employees. They mostly badge into the office, head to the roof and sit up there all day doing nothing of importance.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by bongripper on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:30PM (#38958550)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAiPcPRZlBk

The main character is nicknamed "Big Head", just referencing his big ol' dome.

Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by nus07 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:21PM (#38958407)
Big Head has always been an inspiration . Maximizing gains with minimal effort . If only I could make it work in real life lol.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by abledon on Thursday January 11, 2024 @03:58PM (#38958969)
when people slack at their jobs and just let other team members pick it up... it seems so scummy. Someone has to have a 'challenging' upbringing to have this be their default mode of operation.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by tomatotomato37 on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:16PM (#38959186)
If I remember right Big Head wasn't lazy, just clueless. The fact he unintentionally failed upward as much as he did was part of the comedy.
Re:Discord is laying off 17 percent of employees by swingingFlyFish on Thursday January 11, 2024 @04:53PM (#38959768)
You should watch Office Space.