Most men are decent, but plenty of men are aggressive, scary, or make women very uncomfortable.

If you ask someone out respectfully, of course that's fine. If you're not taking no for an answer, being hostile, or making someone feel very uncomfortable/unsafe, then you're not doing the right thing.

Yeah, sure, you're being a "gentleman" by backing down when she inevitably rejects such an inappropriate advance, but after the hundredth insta-suitor, it gets old and even stressful and anxiety inducing.

So, as a man, your options are to:

1. Ask fewer women out so that you are more respectful. This likely means you'll have less success dating.

2. Ask more women out, even in environments that might be uncomfortable, e.g. a server, co-worker, etc. They're going to have more success dating.

Again, I totally understand this sucks for women, but men don't have great options here either.

Get to know someone before asking them out. Find out what they're like. Know what you're like, and what kinds of people you're compatible with. Your 20s and in some cases even 30s are your opportunity to learn.

Just blindly asking someone out is lazy and rude.

These people generally aren’t being nice to you because they reciprocate, they’re being nice because it’s their job. Asking them out while they’re working is awkward for everyone involved. Worse, it can make them feel pressured to let you down gently or give you the false impression that they’re interested if only they weren’t currently in a relationship.

Being nice to people in the workplace is part of being a professional, especially for jobs that may rely on tips.

Do you?

I'd simply never want to make somebody feel uncomfortable because I choose a time that is not appropriate for such interactions. And for me, that pretty much means that unless we are sharing personal time together outside of such a relationship, then I don't engage in such activities.

Social norms like this can and do change over time, and it's my opinion that this (specifically, that asking people out in a work environment is always or nearly always inappropriate) is one that should -- because I think there's an alternative set of norms that leaves essentially everyone better off. Specifically I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it. Most people would still hesitate to do it (asking someone out can result in rejection, rejection is embarrassing), but the kind of scenario described by Martinussen in https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=akoboldfrying#389248..., where an employee fears for their job if they don't pander to an entitled customer, won't occur.

Interested in your thoughts.

I never do well with these really I think because I often have both extreme, yet very conflicting positions on almost everything. But sure.

> I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it.

I would say in an ideal world, realistically, yes. Despite the suggestion my post my have originally given. It was probably too flippant, for which I apologise honestly.

The next time I'm in an internet argument that seems to be escalating, I hope I will remember these last couple of comments of yours, and be as willing to reconsider my own position as you have been.

This is what parties and other social activities are for.

>I've asked out wait staff at restaurants, bar tenders, even co-workers with some success based on little more than them being nice or attractive, this is how our species reproduces, if its "bullshit" for anyone its men getting the short end of the stick, all women have to do is ignore or deny the advance, how is that "dealing with bullshit"?

You make a good point. You have personally asked out women based off them being nice or attractive, therefore it cannot be a source of irritation. It cannot have been unpleasant if kylebenzel does it