The Toyota EV also had tires falling off and recent Hyundai/Kia cars were catching on fire because the engine was overheating from the automatic stop/start when you stop. Jeep has transmission issues where theirs cars would go to neutral on their own, which ended up with Anton Yelchin dying at 27 years old crushed against a fence by his own car. I believe Honda has problems with manual transmissions going out of gear while you were driving and just refused to address the problem for a long ass time.

They're all bad. There's a whole scene in the Fight Club movie where they explain every car company will refuse to fix a deadly problem unless they calculate the lawsuits will cost them more than the fix, and I believe it.

Tires falling off must be a special magical failure. Wheels I’d understand but tires?

It was an English error in this case, but if you're curious, that's how you lose your tires : https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/tire-blows-immediately-aft...

Blown tire. Dude liked speeding and drifting but no clue of physics.

Isn't the world filled with crap being sold in crazy amounts purely for marketing and branding? It seems to me like the only surprise is that somehow, generally speaking, the car industry had some correlation of cost:quality until Tesla came about. Other industries (I'm thinking fashion/food) had lost that correlation long ago.

Not really until tesla - Mercedes has been excitedly shipping creaky piano black plastic for years and I'm sure there are many other brands cutting corners to reduce price. (Porsche doesn't seem to care which is good)

My BMW X5 just was driven back to me yesterday after nearly 3 weeks away for 1) a puncture and 2) a recall of some sort. 3 weeks because they decided run flats would save them money, and also got rid of the garages courtesy car fleet, also tyre sizes which are near unobtainium and never in stock anywhere.

This is my second X5 G05, and this one is definitely of lower quality than the first. Removed bits here/there, replaced aluminium parts inside with coated plastic, replaced leather with synthetic-like thing and plenty of other cost cutting markers.

Don't tell me 'oh don't buy another one' as demonstrated by this article (and others), they all do it to pretty much the same degree, all you can hope is not to run out of warranty before something mind bogglingly expensive breaks.

So, the problem was unavailbility of the tires? Not good, but not necessarily a quality problem, or do I miss something?

Sad to see. I had an X5 from 2002 with manual 5-speed transmission (had to search hard), and it was excellent. Still somewhat regret trading it in after 287,500 miles, with very few issues. The only issue was that the brake calipers would start to drag slightly and warp the rotors, but I discovered that it was because I was using them too lightly; occasionally doing some serious braking (not quite as hard as bedding new race pads) was enough to get >100k miles out of a set of rotors & calipers. Similar with an E36 that I used for track days & time trials.

I found it really sad to see that Mini (owned by BMW) and BMW are pushing hard on run-flats. Hard NOPE from me, as I drive a good amount in fairly rural areas, and driving 50mi from a random point (the flat-driving range spec of a run-flat tire) still leaves me at a random point with no service. And the quality is just gone way down, as you've noted. Too bad.

BMW X models are special. Manufactured in the USA. I’m driving an X3 now. Front carpets disintegrated after 500km. BMW cars built in Europe (non-SUVs) are of a much better quality.

True, though the article talks about much more serious stuff than the quality of the interior plastic.

According to Consumer Reports, Mercedes-Benz scores second last in reliability amongst car brands.

Lexus/Toyota being the most reliable.

Tesla is middle of the pack at #14 and some surprises (branding?) include Volvo at position 25.

Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...

Predicted reliability is such a stupid measure imho.

Aslo, this list is based on owners reporting everything from nuissances to serious stuff. That alone is highly subjective, and we didn't even get into the root causes for each reported issue...

They did a few things right that the legacy manufacturers just can’t freaking figure out.

* their charging infrastructure is by far the best. Regardless of coverage, their chargers are typically in working condition.

* they actually put enough power in their powertrain. No dinky, slow cars. Fast, powerful cars. They’re fun to drive when you want them to be fun.

* technology.

If you look at the things people care about in modern BEVs its easy to see why Tesla is winning.

Price, range, charging speed & reliability, performance and software.

It’s pretty obvious at this point with the entire auto indistry switching to NACS that Tesla won.

Tesla hired extremely talented engineers to design their cars. You can't really say the same for e.g. Ford. Tesla tackled the engineering problem from a hardware and software perspective. You can't say the same of really any traditional automaker.

So, Ford's automotive engineers are untalented sobs? Bold claim.

I haven’t worked at Ford, but I have at Chrysler and GM.

Slobs, no. Specialized to a degree you can’t imagine, yes.

Tesla hires PHDs, normal OEs will hire kids out of a few MI or IL schools, train them, and then put them in 200 person teams.

There is a guy that does nothing but dog light mounting on 4 models of vehicles.

That is not how Tesla works.

Got it, all those automotive engineering PhDs were unemployed before Tesla showed up. And given bad Tesla's buold quality is, maybe Tesla should have all thise specialized teams as well.

But yes, this hyperspecialization is the main reason I didn't fo to automotive. Benefit of mounting the same light so, the guy doesn't mount it in a way that doesn't light the intended area or causes cable fires.

From what I understand, the PHDs and really smart people at Tesla working on vehicles - had never worked on vehicles before.

People at OEs made fun of them for this. For awhile.

Considering that

- Tesla almost went under due attempted over-automation

- Tesla had to resort to rework cars in tents after they left the assembly line with serious quality issues

- Teslas are among the worst built cars according to technical inspection numbers

- Tesla installed touchscreens not rated for environment or use case

- Tesal still has reliably figured out how to install hod and trunks

- Tesla still doesn't know how to keep water out of the interior of their cars

I am inclined to say those PhDs were right. Not that redicule is something to level against your competition, but hiring PhDs to built cars who never did so is just a bad idea.

I see your text. But your points do not seem to be that of someone that wants Tesla to make a better vehicle. This seems more ideological to me.

I have a serious problem with bad engineering being promoted, yes.

And believe it or not, I want Tesla to make good cars that don't pose a hazard for various reasons. And I think one of the sadest things about Tesla is all the stupid, ignorant mistakes they made, all easily avoidable. Just image where they could be now, if it wasn't for all those sheninigans. I hate to see it, when people and companies blow opportunities that are once in a, heck multiple, lifetimes.

There's a gap between extremely talented and whatever Ford does. It's like comparing IBM and Open AI. IBM is full of smart people but we're kidding ourselves by drawing an equivalence.

True. One is a sustainable company employing thousands of people, the other is a hyped company kept alive by investor money with dysfunctional leadership.

Agreed 100%.

Also skipping the dealership salesman

All cars have these issues. The article is more hit peice than real journalism which would include statsitics from all automakers. Remember we have lemon laws? Writing negative things about Tesla just gets more hits.

Actually no, most cars don't have suspension failures...

It’s a very common recall area. You should really do some research.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/jee...

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/honda-crv-recall-2023-rust-...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1264789

A failure while driving is very different from a recall. Especially if the brand in question knows about the issues for years!

Edit:

From your own links:

>> Jeep Grand Cherokee SUVs Recalled Because Suspension Parts Might Fall Off

Might =|= did fall off, pro-active =|= waitimg for four years until being forced to do a recall

>> Honda is recalling nearly 564,000 of its older model CR-V sport utility vehicles because road salt can cause the frame to rust and rear suspension parts to come loose.

Emphasis on older, rust and can cause -> recalled before suspension parts broke, and definitely not on brand new cars

>> Subaru is recalling nearly 875,000 cars and SUVs in the U.S. because the engines can stall or a rear suspension part can fall off.

Again, can, and not did fall off.

Sometimes it seems reading comprehension, or the lack thereof is directly linked to technical understanding, or again lack thereof.

If you read into these recalls all of them obviously affected safety of cars on the road which is why the recall was initiated.

Carmakers often know of issues for years prior to a formal recall. This is standard.

Not if the recall is safety relevant, the don't. Because there is only one car maker out there that intentionally plays with the lives of its customers and everyone who happens to be around one their cars.

> Because there is only one car maker out there that intentionally plays with the lives of its customers and everyone who happens to be around one their cars.

Do you mean GM or Honda?

> On September 17, 2015, General Motors entered into a Deferred Prosecution Agreement with the United States Department of Justice, in which GM admitted that "from in or about the spring of 2012 through in or about February 2014, GM failed to disclose a deadly safety defect to its U.S. regulator ... It also falsely represented to consumers that vehicles containing the defect posed no safety concern."[5] As part of the Deferred Prosecution Agreement, GM agreed to forfeit $900 million to the United States.[5][51] GM gave $600 million in compensation to surviving victims of accidents caused by faulty ignition switches.[52][53]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch....

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/business/air-bag-flaw-lon...

Or one of the dozens of carmakers that hid faults that resulted in actual deaths?

I can Google all day and find dozens of such issues with other automakers, but you seem hell bent on hating on Tesla so nothing will change your mind.

I mean all of them, but only one has made it a habit, a design philosophy even. And only one went so far to charge customers a premium for those features.

Recalls happen because of failures during driving. Why would anyone recall cars if there are no failures during driving?

Recalls happen because a safety and / or quality issue is identified. Than this issue is remedied by a rwcalk: either forced or voluntary one.

Cars are recalled because a part might fail during operation, worst case that risk is found once the part did fail.

Only a bunch of incompetent frauds would:

a) ignore their own data and wait four years to recall, and then only in one market

b) need years to find a solution, as it seems, still isn't good enough

c) issue a policy to blame these failing parts, well known and identified internally, on their customers

It’s hard to determine how many people actually hate the product, or just now really hate the figurehead. I’ve seen the mask slip some here and there.

Despite this hit peice they still make some of the best BEVs when you consider range, price, charging speed/network and software. These are things customers care the most about. Every brand has reliability and quality issues and tesla is in the middle of the pack statistically.

You might want to study the issues with the non-tesla fast chargers in the United States to see what customers really care about.

They're still the best (especially with the Bolt being discontinued) option in the US if you want an EV under $40k

Because issues with other cars are not given wide media attention like Teslas. And HN is far worse in that regard.

> According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford issued 55 safety recalls in 2023, down from 67 last year. The repair campaigns affected 5.9 million vehicles, down from 8.6 million in 2022, which put the automaker in second place for the total number of vehicles recalled. Honda’s 19 recalls affected 6.3 million cars.

> Chrysler issued the second-highest number of recalls, at 45. Kia came in third for the total number of recalled cars, with more than 3 million affected by its 20 repair campaigns.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/in-2023-ford-again-led-nation-i...

How many of those did you see reported on HN?

And many of Tesla's recalls are OTA updates, and even software update recalls show up on HN.

So true. Elsewhere in this thread I cited 3 major recent suspension recalls for issues that were as bad or worse than Teslas.

What else are you going to buy? A Chevy?

The magical part to me is these were the greatest cars ever until Musk bought Twitter.

You missed a decade of complaints? Under the previous ownership, videos of Tesla “FSD” making dangerous decisions were a Twitter staple for years.

A couple years ago I was routinely down voted on here and other social media sites for making fun of Teslas emergency vehicle homing feature. Then Musk bought Twitter and I stopped hearing all the justifications for them and former defenders of Tesla started saying what I was saying years ago.

I can’t say anything about the down votes but from what I saw, I the criticism was always there but it grew over time as the stuff Musk promised customers drifted years and years further away, and his increasingly unhinged social media antics made it harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt. It felt a lot like what happened with President Bush where some people who really wanted democracy in the Middle East or Afghanistan kept coming up with these 5-dimensional chess theories based on the assumption that he shared their goal and must have some deeper plan where it all made sense, only to eventually accept that it was just as disorganized as it appeared on the surface.

I'm sorry you got down voted. I hate down votes. Anyway...

These issues with Tesla aren't recent, they've been talked about for a decade at least.

While HN was rather _late_ to figure out that Naughty Old Mr Car was full of shit (people defended him for the Thailand diver thing!) it does finally seem to have figured it out. HN’s hive mind tends to be rather slow on the uptake, but gets there eventually; see also Bitcoin (the savior of the world on this website until 2019 or so).

I think you answered your own question: there isn't a "with all of this".