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Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by constantlm on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @08:56PM (#38551899)
How much water did the banking industry use? Or the gold mining and storage industries?
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by TaylorAlexander on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @09:04PM (#38551945)
Comparing bitcoin to the banking industry is so absurd to me unless you account for users served.

How much water per user served did the banking industry use? It makes sense that banking uses a lot of resources in total because it is a huge industry, serving hundreds of millions of people worldwide, if not billions. Bitcoin serves what, at most a few tens of thousands of users?

I heard people talk about the electricity usage of the banking industry in comparison to bitcoin and its the same thing. Yeah it takes a lot of energy to heat and cool every bank in the world, but it is serving several orders of magnitude more people than bitcoin and offering way more services. Can I walk in to a bitcoin building and get a loan for a new car? Nope.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by lolbase on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @09:54PM (#38552250)
Perhaps it could be compared to _just_ FedWire. But even then, FedWire handles about $4t of transfers per day. That's a couple orders of magnitude more than BitCoin.

And that's literally one service, from one bank.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by TheDudeMan on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:38AM (#38554966)
That is a reasonable comparison. Bitcoin can do that much volume as well (without much change in water “usage”). The difference being that one is controlled by the US government and one is not.
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by TaylorAlexander on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:41PM (#38562181)
Bitcoin can handle $4T in transfers a day?
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by lolbase on Friday December 08, 2023 @04:01PM (#38574330)
Should be no problem, so long as the average transfer is about $7m.

Realistically, it'd happen using L2 solutions, which would negate the comparison to FedWire.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by TheDudeMan on Tuesday December 19, 2023 @05:58PM (#38703123)
At ~700,000 transactions per day, if the avg txn value is $6M, then yes.
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by kkielhofner on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:51AM (#38553296)
To put it in perspective Bank of America alone has over 60 million customers.

60 million real people. People that forget a password, lose their wallet, encounter fraud, need to walk into banks occasionally, use debit cards/deal with cash/ATMs, credit cards that are also accepted everywhere, and as you point out financing products people can actually use (not some crazy smart contract DEX who knows what), need help, have questions, etc, etc, etc.

Safety deposit boxes to notary services the list just never ends. This is just retail.

Plus little things like at least trying to comply with the law, customer protections, regulation, oversight, fraud departments, etc.

People that even bring up comparison to the banking or financial system in discussion of bitcoin power usage instantly have zero credibility.

Although the same could be said for almost any comparison between bitcoin and the banking system. It has total users measured in the 7-8 figures tops after 16 years for many valid reason.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by tempmac on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:38AM (#38554221)
> People that forget a password, lose their wallet, encounter fraud, need to walk into banks occasionally

hmm these seem to be usecases that are almost impossible for bitcoin/blockchains that say "cheap transaction fees / trust in the system" due to no-person-in-the-loop...

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by PoignardAzur on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:02AM (#38554386)
I honestly don't know if you're being sarcastic.

Yes, it's "not a problem" because all transactions are final and if you lose the key to your virtual wallet with all your savings, then you're fucked, but that's part of the point?

Banks provide these essential services that people need. Bitcoin doesn't, and it still consumes massively more energy.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by tempmac on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:51AM (#38570428)
sorry I'm not being sarcastic to you, but those bitcoin/blockchainers...

I just noticed you were listing vital features of a financial system, and yet wasn't using them as your foremost argument.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by peyton on Thursday December 07, 2023 @01:11AM (#38553401)
Well yeah it’s called regulatory capital for a reason. Banks are happy to provide token services in exchange for mispriced loans from retail to support their nonretail biz. It’s cool I can walk into a BoA branch in my neighborhood; in exchange I can’t get a house for less than a million bucks. Number one rule of banking is retail’s getting fucked. Most people would be better off with a narrow bank.
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by imtringued on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:33AM (#38553842)
Nothing stops you from borrowing Bitcoin loans and using that to pay for your house... except the risk that Bitcoin goes up from 40k€ to 60k€ and your loan got 50% more expensive and there you go, your comment becomes pure hypocrisy.

The idea that 11 people bidding up 10 houses is going to radically change if you have Bitcoin or a narrow bank is ridiculous. If people borrow Bitcoin for the loan, they will still have to outbid everyone else at exactly the same price measured in dollars, because eleven people are bidding up 10 houses.

I am honestly quite tired of nonsense like your comment. If the economy is in general equilibrium, then there is no meaningful difference between Bitcoin and the dollar. If there is no general equilibrium, I would expect Bitcoin to be further away from it than dollars.

Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by lxgr on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @09:00PM (#38551923)
Agriculture probably also uses more, but you can’t eat Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by sc68cal on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:06PM (#38552349)
Which one provided more economic value to society? It wasn't Bitcoin, that's for sure.
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by mistercheph on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:38PM (#38552894)
*extracted [...] from society
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by boppo1 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @09:58PM (#38552285)
Golf courses in Arizona and SoCal
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by Ekaros on Thursday December 07, 2023 @01:38AM (#38553539)
And wouldn't bitcoin likely use almost same amount of servers if they provided same services? Moving numbers around on ledger is only part of it. Heavy computing is in all business rules and internal logs and traceability. And you are not getting rid of those situations where one service called an other even if final ledger is immutable...
Re:Bitcoin mining used more water than New York City last year by bdcravens on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:55AM (#38553971)
This is always the default response to these conversations, but I think it should be evaluated in different terms: what is the ratio of resources consumed to value created/maintained?