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Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by dghughes on Monday December 04, 2023 @06:51AM (#38516167)
Carthage has to have the goofiest downfall of a culture in all history. The Carthaginians labelled their ship parts for efficient construction. Rome captured one of their ships and found all the labels. Rome then made the better style ship made by Carthage and conquered them mainly due to the ships. It's like death by Ikea.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by ChrisMarshallNY on Monday December 04, 2023 @07:41AM (#38516548)
> It's like death by Ikea.

You win the Internet.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by himinlomax on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:01AM (#38517289)
Carthage and Rome also fought what was by some measures (by number of ships or sailors) the biggest naval battle of all times, even taking WW2 into account.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:35AM (#38517748)
Fun fact is that they have this record "only" because the east asians seas just kept screwing with everyone doing massive fleets. The mongols, koreans, japans ...
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by chadash on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:02AM (#38517304)
The Romans actually had a difficult time beating the Carthaginian navy. They tried to copy their ships, but without the ship-building experience, they didn't have much success. To level the playing field, they invented the corvus (AKA the "crow") [1] which was a boarding bridge designed to pierce the enemy ship and allow combatants to board. This played to Rome's strength as a land power with much better hand-to-hand combat troops.

The Corvus had much success in battle, but it is thought to have significantly weighed down ships and offset their center of mass. So at one point, the Roman Navy was stuck in a storm and is thought to have lost over 350 naval ships (and 300 cargo ships) and 100k men at once. It is thought that the corvus might have been responsible for making the ships more likely to capsize during this storm, as the Romans stopped using them after this disaster [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_(boarding_device)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_withdrawal_from_Africa_(...

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:33AM (#38517718)
Sadly for Carthage, in that era Rome's main strenght was its ability to take aburd losses and then just recruit back a giant army right after. There is quite a number of times where they lost a % of their army / populace similar to what that has crumbled many empires through history, but Rome just got back up like it's nothing.

I can't imagine how their ennemies must have felt in those instances.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by ethbr1 on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:46AM (#38517911)
Roman success as a lengthy enduring civilization, from what I understand, has much to do with implementing and optimizing repeatable processes.

E.g. Recruiting and equipping a huge army once, but losing it in a battle. Versus building an economic machine around the ability to continually recruit, train, and equip huge armies.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by dylan604 on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:21AM (#38518333)
I wonder how different the recruiting process for the Romans was from today's modern recruitment efforts. 1) start with prisons, 2) offer service to those facing prison, 3) look for the unemployed, 4) tell potential recruits that they will experience the exact opposite of what will actually occur
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by vkou on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:40AM (#38518597)
Today's modern recruitment process in volunteer armies is more like:

1) Start with children who don't know any better.

2) See #1.

The reason that Russia is enlisting prisoners, is because the MOD needs more people than their peace-time mandatory service contracts are able to provide, but knows that a full draft would be highly unpopular.

Roman recruitment was nothing of the sort. It was not voluntary, it was expected that everyone would participate, and there would be serious consequences for draft-dodgers, both on the level of their local communities, and on a wider social scope.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by ethbr1 on Monday December 04, 2023 @01:30PM (#38521033)
That's selling modern and historical recruitment short: there's always been personal economic calculus for volunteer armies.

"Will service improve my personal situation? Enough to be worth it?"

Hence why recruitment correlates with unemployment.

Nations with effective recruitment policies understood this, and typically funded it with things they had in abundance (e.g. land grants, pensions, etc).

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by borissk on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:43AM (#38517867)
Ask a Ukrainian.

Russians like to call Moscow the third Rome and their leaders don't care about losses.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:53AM (#38517996)
Russia maybe have the numbers, but the troops and equipment they're fielding today in Ukraine is not equal to what they were fielding two years ago.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by borissk on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:26AM (#38518397)
Actually in many ways the Russian army today is vastly superior to the one they had 2 years ago. They use drones, they have better comms (as in actual encrypted radios and not cell phones stolen from civilians), they don't concentrate people and munition in one place, they don't attack with columns of tanks and troop transporters (vulnerable to Bayraktars and Javelins) and so on.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:29AM (#38518440)
I'm conflicted by your comment. Against Ukraine's army ? Absolutely, you're right. Against a modern 2023 western army ? Their loss in equipment downgraded them severely.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by southernplaces7 on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:48AM (#38518698)
It could easily be both at the same time. Through trial by hard, practical experience Russia may have greatly improved its military tactics, while also experiencing a loss of hardware quality on losses for hard to replace equipment. I've heard this is the case and that many of their tanks and other equipment are decidedly of the older kind.

Also, even experience wouldn't necessarily be helpful against the U.S. army in direct combat if it came to that. People sometimes call the U.S. military pampered and oversupplied, but they might forget that, being so often deployed in major operations, it's, aside from being the world's best funded military, also probably one of the world's the most experienced militaries with troops and tactics tested in hard, practical, multifaceted combat.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:26AM (#38519246)
I don't disagree. When asked why we insist on sending troop on every freaking conflict out there especially in africa, our (past) defense minister answered that experienced troops still trumps everything else, it's not enough to train and equip them. France might not be a world superpower or not even close to it anymore, but our troops have fought, and everyone who knows what they talk about says it makes them better than most.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:11AM (#38518213)
True.

But if they do win (for the record, I hope they don't), it won't be because they had superior technology. Or superior generals. It won't be because their cause was righteous.

They will have won because they kept piling on with more infantry beyond what anyone would have thought possible.

Denialism's a fucking superpower.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by nolok on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:34AM (#38518513)
Oh I agree, but I'm also of the very macabre and morally evil view that, for the west/nato, the current situation is the best one we could hope for (short of the dream of "ukraine beats russia").

We don't lose lives, we spend money but not enough that we actually feel it, Russia need to concentrate so much on it their ability to act elsewhere is disminished (sure they launch all their triggers/ Houthi, Venezuela, Sub-saharian africa, but it's not 2016 anymore), ...

It's frankly horrible, but every time an ukrainian solider dies to kill two russian soldiers, western countries safety position improves. I'm not saying I agree with that, or think it's good, to be clear. But I think that the west never considered Ukraine in their sphere and the horrors that have happened since 2013 have invariably been in favor of "us" and not russia, and russia is so focused on playing the game the way it was played last century it feels like they missed it.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by chubot on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:52AM (#38519647)
western countries safety position improves

This is just weird, because Russia is a much weaker country than the US, and many European countries.

Economically, they are tiny. e.g. I just Googled and found this

https://twitter.com/BWJones/status/1568223569947275264?lang=...

It says Russia's economy is smaller than that of California, Texas, and New York. That sounds about right.

(and of course war is mainly an economic contest)

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They are not a threat to the West. The West is a threat to Russia.

Russia is aggressive and violent because they're in a weak position. They were invaded by Napolean, by Germany in WW I, and by Hitler's Germany in WW II (notably, these are all western powers).

Russia lost ~27,000,000 people in World War II, while the US lost ~400,000.

In the meantime, the US has NEVER had a war on its soil.

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The US would not accept missiles in Cuba in the 1960's. Would we accept Chinese missiles in Mexico in 2024?

It's not a surprise that they would not accept NATO weapons in Ukraine.

Obviously I'm not condoning the invasion, but I'd also say that old men in the US are playing with the lives of young Ukrainian men.

If the US wanted to end this war, we could do it today by actually winning it with our weapons. Instead we trickle out the bare minimum of weapons, ensuring the war grinds to a stalemate.

---

If I were Zelensky, I wouldn't make myself and my citizens dependent on powers who actually don't want to win the war.

I wouldn't want to be dependent on people like you, who just want to use the lives of my citizens for to gain an inch in an imaginary game that has little consequence for them.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by wolverine876 on Monday December 04, 2023 @01:09PM (#38520711)
> They are not a threat to the West. The West is a threat to Russia.

Nothing stops Russia from ceasing warfare and signing a permanent peace (and trade!) agreement with the West. Obviously nobody is invading Russia nor does anyone in Europe have the slightest interest in it. In January 2022 they were still imagining Putin as a partner. They can barely bother to invest in their militaries or Ukraine's even now.

There would never be warfare again at that latitude from the Atlantic to the Pacific - and back again, all the way around the planet. Russians would be far better off, living in peace for generations to come. But Putin wants an empire.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by dghughes on Monday December 04, 2023 @09:19PM (#38526203)
>In the meantime, the US has NEVER had a war on its soil.

Only if you don't count wars in the US against Britain, Mexico, Spain, Native American nations.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by jdeibele on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:21PM (#38547619)
And itself, as in The Civil War.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by southernplaces7 on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:42AM (#38518625)
>Sadly for Carthage

Before you sympathize too much with Carthage, bear in mind that their (well documented by contemporary sources even if you account for anti-Carthagian propaganda from some Roman sources) religious practices were distinctly grotesque, involving no shortage of child sacrifice that even included burning children alive. Notable families were also encouraged to do the same to their first sons in times of crisis, but would often buy the children of poor people to go in their place.

I know the Romans really, really disliked the Carthagians, so it must have tainted their view on them in all circumstances, but even then, there are enough sources professing outright disgust about their sacrificial practices to give the complaints some weight. And if Romans of all people are disgusted with how brutal a country's cultural practices are, you can imagine that they probably were pretty damn awful.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by naremu on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:36AM (#38519406)
While it's interesting and something I hadn't heard about, Carthage's potential religious human sacrifice aspect of culture, this comment is ironically not that far off from historical views/curiosities of rival societies.

I'm reminded of how most all the hallmarks we attribute to the Spartans turns out to be literal hearsay of the time (much of it emanating from...yep, times of conflict/rivalry). Although they were apparently intentionally secretive, it's pretty easy to imagine some not-anthropologist merchants passing along gossip which gets taken in by the rival permanent settlements.

Not that Carthage is free from accusation, but I'm reading some historians actually claim Romans found the religious ceremony of sacrifice to be abhorrent, as opposed to the more general infanticide that was recorded throughout the larger region (including Rome) for presumably a more eugenic/pragmatic purpose.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by smallnamespace on Monday December 04, 2023 @12:01PM (#38519784)
The Spanish also had many accounts of Mayan child sacrifice. These accounts were often dismissed by historians on suspicion of prejudice. We've more recently found archaeological evidence of the Mayan practice on a massive scale.

Sometimes dismissing evidence because of perceived bias is simply incorrect.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by naremu on Monday December 04, 2023 @12:42PM (#38520333)
To be fair, I haven't ever heard suspicions of prejudice as an argument to discredit Spanish expedition's writings on the matter, presumably as I've heard the accounts were often eyewitnessed, unlike typical Roman/Greek depictions of distant places they were frequently declaring cultural and actual war on.

I also didn't dismiss potential evidence for Carthage's sacrificial culture, of which there's enough to make the accusation, but really, only that.

I don't actually have a horse in the races of dead people, but I do hesitate to perpetuate even ancient culture wars. It's usually just going to make more use of people's tribal desire than their deductive skills, though why people have emotions about ancient, dead societies, I'll never know.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by dghughes on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:31AM (#38519339)
Rome bad-mouthed the Rasenna (Etruscan in Latin) basically calling them all whores. But some Rasenna people were a big part of Roman history and even Senators. Rome wrote history to suit themselves. It's the same with Carthage almost nothing exists except for what Rome said the culture was like.
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by Aspos on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:03AM (#38518924)
It just happens that current world we live in is influenced by European civilizations, which were significantly influenced by the Romans. So your world view is stemming from Roman culture.

Now imagine Carthage won the Punic wars and destroyed Rome, what would we be disgusted with while reading about Roman customs? What would we be considering brutal, awful and barbaric?

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by incrudible on Monday December 04, 2023 @12:56PM (#38520537)
Are we not considering many Roman customs brutal, awful, and barbaric? What did the Carthaginians not do that the Romans did?
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by southernplaces7 on Monday December 04, 2023 @01:19PM (#38520864)
I would consider sacrificing living children to be brutal and grotesque no matter who does it or for what reason, Roman, Carthagian or Aztec, or anyone else. As for your premise, it's flawed. For a society whose world view supposedly stems from Roman culture, we're kept extremely aware by many sources about how brutal the Romans could be too. It's hardly something painted pretty by modern media or books. Quite the opposite.

It's also generally absurd to think that I must automatically be influenced by some propaganda if I consider plausible the ancient records and evidence of another society's extreme sacrificial practices.

As another comment in this reply thread mentions, (though it mistakes Aztecs with Maya), people spent decades thinking that accounts of mass Aztec child sacrifice were colonial era-biased exaggerations, until mass graves of children were much more recently found showing signs not only of sacrifice but torture in advance (to induce tears for the god Tlaloc among other reasons).

Sometimes historical cultures are just awful in certain ways that have to be mentioned in posterity, even if we can appreciate other aspects of those cultures. This applies to any culture and should.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by chubot on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:44AM (#38519533)
Yes! The Ikea reverse engineering, the Corvus, and the sudden huge Roman casualties were all mentioned in the Fall of Civ episode! Pretty crazy and fascinating
Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by vkou on Monday December 04, 2023 @10:31AM (#38518483)
Anecdotes like that, while interesting[1], are rarely the principal cause of an entire nation-state's downfall.

The principal cause for why Rome was so successful at beating up its neighbours was well-executed logistics and a capable bureaucracy.

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[1] Interesting, but non-nonsensical. How would labeling the parts of an already-completed ship meaningfully impact reverse-engineering efforts? It's a ancient ship, not an composite airplane, or a microchip, you can rip it apart, piece-by-piece, without the benefit of labeling.

Re:Tyrian purple: Ancient pigment that was more valuable tha... by sophacles on Monday December 04, 2023 @11:44AM (#38519528)
When I was young, one of my mentors said "half of engineering is knowing the vocabulary".

The older I get, the more I'm convinced he's right. The names of parts helps give some amount of context and purpose to why a thing was done, what it's role is, etc.

This gives a much quicker comprehension to the thing you're trying to understand - consider someone handing you a codebase you've never seen, and a vague description of what it does. Is it easier to understand with well named functions, variables and types? What if the all function names were replaced with f1, f2, ... fn, and variable names were replaced with v1, v2, ... vn, and so on?

What if it wasn't a complete codebase, but only part of it, and had gone through a bit of a scramble (the Carthaginian ship in question had been wrecked as I understand it)? What if you were a brand new programmer (Rome was new to the whole ship thing then...)?

You're absolutely right that it's not strictly necessary to have the labels for reverse engineering, but the labels certainly help... for context it was 8 years from the start of the war until the battle in question, and the fleet was built in just 4 years. At that rate, I find the label thing a plausible contributing factor.