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Re:The Dead Children We Must See by bhouston on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @04:58PM (#38451907)
The main difference with Syria is that those who are doing the killing are not funded by the US. Israel on the other hand is funded by the US government, especially its military. On the other hand, it is estimated that 90% of the deaths are by the Syrian government, which is not funded at all by the US Government:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil...

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mr_toad on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:45PM (#38453889)
> Israel on the other hand is funded by the US government, especially its military.

US funding of Israel is at most a few percent of their GDP. Some years it drops to below 1 percent. If the US stopped funding Israel nothing would happen in Israel. Israel is more than capable of looking after themselves. And they have nukes.

The only political repercussions of cutting funding for Israel would be in the US itself. It buys votes. They’re not actually doing it for Israels benefit.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by coredog64 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:40PM (#38454341)
Israel is an incubator for weapons systems, and generic contributions buy access. The US manufactures the ammunition for Iron Dome, and the DoD is generally keen on adding something like Iron Beam to the abilities of every branch of the service.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by bhouston on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:05PM (#38454542)
This is just a side effect of the Israel lobby pushing for strong alignment between the US and Israel. The lobby pushes for alignment and dollars and military cooperation follows. You can mixing up cause and effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_Sta...

For example AIPAC is pledging $100m to target in primaries progressive democrats who have not supported Israel recently. That is a hell of a lot of money: https://www.bostonherald.com/2023/11/17/powerful-pro-israel-...

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by hbt on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:07PM (#38454966)
the bombs being dropped on Gaza are american bombs. It is not 1% of bombs being american, so I don't know what GDP relativism has to do with it.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by bhouston on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:12PM (#38455010)
Are you replying to someone else? I didn’t mention gdp or even imply it.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by lsaac on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:56PM (#38455369)
And it buys itself invaluable feedback by way of Israeli military being the beta users of many weapon systems. And of course intelligence sharing
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by senknvd on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:20AM (#38456182)
Why would you compare (mostly) military aid to the GDP? Aid from the US has comprised around 15% of Israel's defense budget in recent years and the current bill under deliberation would almost quintuple that sum.

It is the largest recipient of American foreign aid since WW2

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by n0tm0ney on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @07:13AM (#38458458)
It's not just the money, it's the fact that Israel has backing from the US at the UNSC, and from a military point of view.

Remove that and Israelis will be making peace with Palestinians very quickly.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by Georgelemental on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:35PM (#38453192)
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-beheadi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

For years, the CIA helped arm, fund, and train the "Al-Nursa front"—Al-Quaeda's official Syrian affiliate. Al-Nursa took over Aleppo, ran wild looting, raping, and killing. But when Russia and Assad finally freed the city from the terrorists, US condemned the liberators.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by creato on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:57PM (#38453438)
Your source does not remotely support your claim.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by arp242 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:44PM (#38454376)
> Assad finally freed the city from the terrorists

And Assad is not a terrorist? "We want democracy; here, have a bullet in the head instead".

That Wikipedia page says pretty clearly it supported the Free Syrian Army, and that some arms may have accidentally ended up with IS extremists. That is not the same thing as "helped arm, fund, and train" at all.

Nour al-Din al-Zenki seems to have gotten some support around 2014/2015. It's not entirely clear to me what the entire story on that is, and the LA Times article doesn't explain it either.

You are spectacularly misrepresenting your own links to the point it's exceedingly hard to take this in good faith.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by Georgelemental on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:40PM (#38455249)
The LA times link doesn't tell much of the story, that's why I linked to Wikipedia as well.

(As for Assad—I am no fan of the man, he is a butcher, but still far better than Al-Nursa.)

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by arp242 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:43AM (#38456329)
> that's why I linked to Wikipedia as well

Which completely contradicts what you claimed.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by yodsanklai on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:09PM (#38452081)
> Israel on the other hand is funded by the US government, especially its military

Generally speaking, Israel is part of the West and we expect them to have a higher standard than some dictatorship.

That being said, how many deaths can be attributed to the US in Iraq or Afghanistan? I assume order of magnitude higher than what we're witnessing in Gaza. It seems Israel doesn't get the same free pass for some reason.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by NomDePlum on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:46PM (#38454389)
Can you provide a citation on your claim of "an order of magnitude" or retract it please?

At present it's not clear Israel is being held to any standard. What is the lower standard you would like them to be held to?

It would also be worth explaining why you think any country is due "a free pass" when it comes to killing. And what that "free pass" entitles you to.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by nearbuy on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:51PM (#38454850)
> Population-based studies produce estimates of the number of Iraq War casualties ranging from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 to 1,033,000 excess deaths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

I'm surprised you're asking for numbers that are so easily accessible. Perhaps you're only thinking of people directly killed by US soldiers while the parent comment was considering all violent deaths caused by the war the US started?

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by bhouston on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:58PM (#38453447)
I protested the Iraq War when it happened too. It was started on false premises and cost a ton. The outcome was good, the us did withdraw and these is a democracy now, but the costs were high.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by differingopinio on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:27PM (#38452312)
The Israelis have killed more children in two months in Gaza than the US killed in 20 years of war in Afghanistan.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:30PM (#38452356)
There's a reason it's Afghanistan people cite here, and not Iraq. Even counts of dead children aren't neutral. There's no way around taking time to learn about things; you can't sum things up with a grisly picture or a grim scorecard. Or you can, I don't know, maybe it works great. It's what we've been trying to do up 'til now. How's it going?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by differingopinio on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:37PM (#38452446)
The Israelis have also killed more kids in Gaza than the U.S. did in Iraq from 2008 to 2022 (according to UNICEF).

https://www.unicef.org/iraq/press-releases/more-9000-childre...

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:48PM (#38452599)
I'm really not interested in lining up and correcting the scorecards, so much as I am in the broader point that what people suppose to be simple, clarifying jolts of information --- body counts, horrible photos, whatever --- don't so much clarify as nudge people towards a preferred narrative.

That doesn't make them wrong. There is truth and there is falsity and for every important, complicated truth, there are people who "prefer" the narrative that conveys it. But it's not the body count that establishes the truth, it's the underlying work that went into revealing it.

The truth of the situation you're intent on nudging us about is intensely complicated.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:31PM (#38453144)
I am sorry but stating the truth is beyond criticism. If someone is wrong you can state a different fact that illuminates their facts, or wait until they lie, which they must do if they are sticking with the wrong ideas.

You can't criticize someone for saying something that's true, and people only do so when they are losing the argument. If you're so beaten back that you're resorting to that, I will help you: Hamas killed more Israeli children than Saddam killed American children.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:35PM (#38453186)
In addition to the problem that the parent commenter seems to be comprehensively wrong, just as a matter of fact, they're also obviously not just stating simple facts to contribute to the body of knowledge we draw from to make our own conclusions; there is a clear subtext to the "facts" they're providing (again, scare-quoting because that's not what they are --- though, give it another month, and check again).

But, more generally, you're just not responding to anything I actually wrote.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by oa335 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:00PM (#38454016)
I mean, to me it seems that they are in fact just stating “facts”. What, in your eyes, is the “correct” way to state those purported facts that would “contribute to the body of knowledge we draw on the make our own conclusions“?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:42PM (#38453269)
"Your facts are biased," is only a legitimate rejoinder if you offer the rest of the facts. Otherwise it is a tool that could be used against anything the speaker doesn't want to acknowledge.

"Reality is too complex to understand, therefore the understanding you are offering must be wrong," is also a way to argue against anything, unless it's accompanied by some part of that reality that the other person cannot explain with their theory.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:33PM (#38453773)
I don't know who you're quoting here, but it isn't me.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:52PM (#38453940)
"The truth of the situation you're intent on nudging us about is intensely complicated."

The act of stating facts is criticized as being "intent on nudging us," and rather than challenging those factual claims or contextualizing them, the line suggests epistemic disengagement in the face of a reality that is "intensely complicated."

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:53PM (#38453953)
In summarizing the thread to this point you might want to start by acknowledging that the things you're referring to as facts weren't, and that my critique was that the assumed facts weren't contextualized. I don't think "epistemic disengagement" is a rap you're going to be able to pin on me, sorry.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:28PM (#38453716)
Except he was NOT stating the truth, not even remotely close to the truth, and I replied to his post.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:05PM (#38454944)
I think your post is a good next post for the conversation, I am only complaining about vague methods of shifting the discussion away from facts and towards suspicions.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by zogrodea on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @11:22PM (#38455539)
An Israeli father (and media in general) thought his own daughter died and turned out to be wrong when she was released (she was kept as a hostage which I don't think is right but she was not killed). https://twitter.com/moghilemear13/status/1728629391373029792

The same media that's wrong about this is giving other information based on similar assumptions (granted that they were corrected).

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @12:02AM (#38455774)
I would be overjoyed if a significant number of the assumed casualties turn out to be mistaken but I am not hopeful.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:24PM (#38453683)
That's not even true. 5,500 children (according to Hamas) is less than 9,000 in Iraq (according to UNICEF).

And around 33% of that total is from failed rockets in Gaza (based on figures collected in previous wars).

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:07PM (#38454970)
Sadly the troops are only in the early stages of controlling the area and that number is going to rise a lot if the war is brought to a military completion the way politicians sound like they intend to.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:18PM (#38455062)
If you check the figures most of the deaths were early in the war before people actually believed the IDF that they should move South. Once they did that civilian deaths dropped dramatically.

So I don't think it's in the early stages, although this ceasefire is going to restart some elements, which is unfortunate.

Hamas needs to surrender - everything they do makes life worse for Palestinians.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by whatshisface on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:40PM (#38455252)
I don't think Hamas is structured in a way that is able surrender, especially now that its "political" wing has totally lost whatever diplomatic or local credibility it had. It only took one month for the coalition to destroy Saddam's regime but it took eight years in all to overcome the random violence and isolated terrorist resistance. Some really bad things happened during the latter part and that's what did the most damage to America.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by gotoeleven on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:08PM (#38454080)
Every death in gaza is 100% entirely the fault of hamas. You can't send out baby beheading rape kidnap squads and then slink off to your jew hiding tunnels you built under hospitals and schools and claim some sort of moral superiority when the victims of your rape kidnap beheadings unintentionally kill some of your supporters.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by NomDePlum on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:56PM (#38454462)
There is no proof of baby beheading. Can you provide any?

For the rest of your post it is so much unsubstantiated propoganda, that appears to be solely put forward to "somehow" excuse the deliberate state murder of many thousands of civilians, disproportionately children and women, in this I'm unsure whether you are the victim or the perpetrator.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by jhanschoo on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:05PM (#38454547)
Let's say for example that you are born to a family that has lived in a certain land for generations, and then the country that now rules over it does not acknowledge you as a citizen. Some terrorists take up residence in your building, and so your new country destroys it without taking sufficient precaution not to hurt civilians.

Everytime I read about Israel's response, I wonder how the military might have proceeded differently if it was in developed Israeli cities that Hamas were hiding instead.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:28PM (#38455134)
> you are born to a family that has lived in a certain land for generations, and then the country that now rules over it does not acknowledge you as a citizen

You are describing how Palestinians treated Jews in Israel. You do realize that Israel is the native land of the Jews for considerably more than a "few generation"? Jews have been native to Israel for more than 3,000 years. What right do Arabs have to come and colonize it?

> and so your new country destroys it without taking sufficient precaution not to hurt civilians.

What more precaution can they take than "leave, there's going to be a war here"? I mean seriously, what else do you want them to do?

> I wonder how the military might have proceeded differently if it was in developed Israeli cities that Hamas were hiding instead.

Easy. The civilians would leave, or Hamas would take them captive. But they would not stay there like some Palestinians are.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:29PM (#38453729)
That's also not true. It seems every single thing you write isn't true.

Afghanistan child deaths: 26,000 vs 5,500 in Gaza (according to Hamas).

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by krembo on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:32PM (#38452377)
Sir, you are posting fake news.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by differingopinio on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:44PM (#38452538)
You may be right. I can't find exact statistics, but I saw a few sites giving numbers of 20,000 - 30,000 (for Afghanistan). The rate of children being killed in Gaza however is far more.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by phpisthebest on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:02PM (#38453490)
All of these numbers come from Hamas, is that a source you trust?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ceejayoz on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:42PM (#38454359)
They've been roughly reliable in the past. Past performance isn't guarantee of future results, of course. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-c...

Good discussion at https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/82572/why-are-s... about the issue.

A quick Googling doesn't find me a counter-estimate from Israel. Given the very clear evidence of large scale bombardment of the Gaza Strip (Israel claims 6,000 bombs dropped, and Hamas is known for favoring populated areas; https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip...), counts in the thousands seem very plausible.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:03PM (#38454525)
They've already botched major events, like the death toll from PIJ's accidental strike on Al-Ahli Hospital. There's also an ongoing concern about "Gaza Health's" practice of including Hamas fighters in civilian death tolls. They're the best numbers we have or are going to get, so they can't be ignore, but their reliability is probably not a good hill to die on.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ceejayoz on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:07PM (#38454562)
Israel's had its own counting issues. It's a challenging enough task with a functioning government and control over the area, let alone an area with more than an a million evacuees going in various directions. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip...

I don't doubt they include Hamas fighters, but I do doubt that Israel's targeting has been so effective and precise the deaths are mostly Hamas. US intelligence estimates 20-25k Hamas members (https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html); I don't think half of them are likely to have been already taken out.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:37PM (#38454771)
I don't think you'll see me saying anything about the accuracy of Israel's numbers in this thread.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:30PM (#38453744)
Both of your numbers, Iraq and Afghanistan are simply not true.

Also, as a percentage of civilian population Gaza deaths are very close to Iraq deaths, except way less dead children in Gaza vs Iraq.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by tptacek on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:06PM (#38452024)
See, this is exactly what I mean.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:20PM (#38453640)
> Israel on the other hand is funded by the US government, especially its military.

Israel spent $23.4b on it's military vs $3.3b from the US. And the Israeli economy is $522B making the US "funding of Israel" 0.6% of their economy.

That's hardly "funded by the US government". And on top of that the US is "funding" Israel in return for technology, so it's more a purchase by the US than anything else.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by jamilton on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:24PM (#38454224)
https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-israel-2/

>The U.S.-Israel economic and commercial relationship is strong, anchored by an annual bilateral trade of nearly $50 billion in goods and services. Several treaties and agreements, including the 1985 U.S.-Israel Free Trade Agreement (FTA), solidify bilateral economic relations. Since the FTA’s signing in 1985, the United States has become Israel’s largest trading partner.

I think it's fair to say that the US has strong connections to Israel. I don't know if it's fair to imply it's totally dependent on the US as they implied, but I think it's more complex than the aid being a small percentage of the GDP.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mcpackieh on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:52PM (#38453945)
3.3 billion dollars is a substantial sum of money. If it's as insubstantial as you claim, can I then safely surmise that discontinuing that funding would be a political nothingburger? Would American zionist politicians shrug and say it doesn't matter if we don't give Israel that 3.3 billion, or would they cry and scream about it? Probably the latter. And Israeli politicians, would they shrug and say it doesn't matter, or would they echo their American counterparts? I think the latter.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by ars on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @10:22PM (#38455088)
They US gets a lot in return for their funding, it's not a one way deal at all.

So you need to take into account what the US would lose. It's far more complex than your shallow "cry and scream".

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mcpackieh on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:00AM (#38458794)
You mean like getting "the only democracy in the region" to be our ally in supporting America's wars in the region? This is the most often touted "benefit" but to say this actually has value to the average American is farcical. Most of America's support for Israel is rooted in religion and ideology, not any tangible benefits to America.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by mda on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @03:35AM (#38456979)
Syrian government and Russia.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by cced on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:57AM (#38459360)
> not funded by the US

Hey just curious here, mind explaining why/how the US is currently occupying 1/3 of Syria and taking 90% of it’s pre-war oil production?