Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by ChuckMcM on Sunday November 26, 2023 @08:55PM
(#38427208)
In terms of cost it seems way way cheaper. The water is stored near where it is needed (so no canals to dig), and you can throw up another one for $125K vs the millions of $ to build a dam.
So I'm guessing the evaporation challenge isn't a deciding factor here.
That said, I wonder how much longer you could keep the ice if you had reflective blankets to cover them once you've "grown" them as much as you can (enter the dry season).
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by maxbond on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:36PM
(#38427446)
I'm having trouble remembering the name (it's obtuse and my searching is bringing up different, similar phenomena - cryo-something iirc), but once the warm dust starts to dig a little hole with some fresh water in it, biofilms of algae and fungi begin to form at the bottom. They're dark colored and accelerate the process further (increasing the size of their habitat).
At least, that happens with real glaciers. It may take a while for a similar phenomenon to arise on artificial glaciers. But sure as sunshine, if there's sunlight and fresh water, the algae will figure out a way to exploit it.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by maxbond on Monday November 27, 2023 @12:01AM
(#38428268)
Interesting, I hadn't heard that before, but it's certainly related. The word I was searching for was the term for this particular biofilm/community, so it's some long technical term.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by williamdclt on Monday November 27, 2023 @07:15AM
(#38431398)
I always wonder that about seemingly-spontaneaous fungus and algea appearance: where do these organisms come from? Are they somehow airborn, or rainborn?
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by maxbond on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:37PM
(#38427456)
It's a lot easier to remove dust from a dry surface (the wind may do it for you - I recently listened to an interview about Mars rovers[1], and they mentioned most of the dust that gets on their cameras gradually blows away).
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by quickthrower2 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:24PM
(#38427374)
I imagine a shiny reflective blanket will reflect more infrared than just snow, and also trap coldness in the air between it and the snow, acting as insulation.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by j-a-a-p on Monday November 27, 2023 @03:10AM
(#38429447)
Color only hints to heat reflective properties. Most of the heat of the sun is not carried in by the visible spectrum. And concerning snow, it is not particularly good at reflecting IR (1).
More a conceptual objection to using blankets. Feels like overengineering. The Ice Stupa idea of Sonam Wangchuk is brilliant IMO and if this minimalist approach would work would be fantastic.
"Kulum village, a remote high-altitude #mountain community facing the effects of climate change, was #abandoned by its residents in 2010 due to water scarcity. In #collaboration with the Ministry of Tribal Affairs (MOTA), the Ice Stupa team of the Himalayan Institute of Alternatives, Ladakh, began the process of #rehabilitation in 2019.
"On 27/02/2023, teams from HIAL & SECMOL along with volunteers trekked to Kulum’s Ice-Stupa site to set up the Automated system – a new and efficient Ice-Stupa-making system that requires very little maintenance. It helps reduce the blockage of pipes, which is a major concern in Ladakh due to the harsh winters. However, the best solution is to drain the pipe before it freezes. Various attributes of the process like the structure’s shape, size, density and weather conditions were tried and tested in Kulum village.
"This project is planned to be scaled up in various high-altitude geographic locations to combat the effects of climate change and global warming."
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by jamesmurdza on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:06PM
(#38427270)
Fun connection—"3 Idiots" is a Bollywood film about the journey of three engineering students at an Indian college, inspired by Wangchuk's (the engineer's) life!
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by aaron695 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @09:20PM
(#38427356)
One of the first impressive creator blogs on the internet, I guess ~2001, was someone, somewhere (Canada or Alaska?) making one of these. It was massive, bigger than these from memory.
I don't think the blog was archived.
I assume this is a 'thing' in colder rural communities in North America. Their version of pallet stacking.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by ggm on Sunday November 26, 2023 @11:32PM
(#38428078)
"desert" comes in all shapes and sizes. The Tibetan plateau is huge, a high altitude arid zone. it encompasses deserts, steppes, it's distinct from the Gobi and it's not death valley, or the sahara. I had to rid myself of barchan dunes marching into the distance and the camels are two humped, and shaggy like ponies.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by bartread on Monday November 27, 2023 @05:17AM
(#38430566)
Indeed. I think the dry valleys in Antarctica are one of the driest deserts on earth - not necessarily where you'd expect to find a desert at all, but an absolutely fascinating place with all those dessicated/mummified seals.
Re:The artificial glacier growing in the desert
by 3seashells on Monday November 27, 2023 @02:03AM
(#38429101)
Now make it pillar shaped, on an onion pressure seal pressing down on a reservoir of its own making. Water, a little energy and coolant store all ar once.
So I'm guessing the evaporation challenge isn't a deciding factor here.
That said, I wonder how much longer you could keep the ice if you had reflective blankets to cover them once you've "grown" them as much as you can (enter the dry season).
At least, that happens with real glaciers. It may take a while for a similar phenomenon to arise on artificial glaciers. But sure as sunshine, if there's sunlight and fresh water, the algae will figure out a way to exploit it.
[1] https://embedded.fm/episodes/371
More a conceptual objection to using blankets. Feels like overengineering. The Ice Stupa idea of Sonam Wangchuk is brilliant IMO and if this minimalist approach would work would be fantastic.
(1) https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADP000147.pdf
In 2019 at least 12, and earlier this year at least one updated design requiring minimal pipe maintenance.
Here is a short 2019 update: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/j-k/villages-in-la...
2023:
"Kulum village, a remote high-altitude #mountain community facing the effects of climate change, was #abandoned by its residents in 2010 due to water scarcity. In #collaboration with the Ministry of Tribal Affairs (MOTA), the Ice Stupa team of the Himalayan Institute of Alternatives, Ladakh, began the process of #rehabilitation in 2019.
"On 27/02/2023, teams from HIAL & SECMOL along with volunteers trekked to Kulum’s Ice-Stupa site to set up the Automated system – a new and efficient Ice-Stupa-making system that requires very little maintenance. It helps reduce the blockage of pipes, which is a major concern in Ladakh due to the harsh winters. However, the best solution is to drain the pipe before it freezes. Various attributes of the process like the structure’s shape, size, density and weather conditions were tried and tested in Kulum village.
"This project is planned to be scaled up in various high-altitude geographic locations to combat the effects of climate change and global warming."
https://hial.edu.in/hial-secmol-team-trekked-to-kulums-ice-s...
I don't think the blog was archived.
I assume this is a 'thing' in colder rural communities in North America. Their version of pallet stacking.
They added different food colors to theirs, making them look like giant frozen rainbows.
Does anyone remember the name or URL?
I'll leave this here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_desert
An artificial glacier growing in the desert (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21721208 - Dec 2019 (9 comments)
It's cheaper and easier for everything. Not just to build.