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Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by rob74 on Saturday November 25, 2023 @03:19PM (#38416359)
The rubber wheel metros are mostly a result of lobbying by Michelin. They're an interesting curiosity, but I think there is a reason why they haven't really caught on outside of France...
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by uxp8u61q on Saturday November 25, 2023 @03:27PM (#38416415)
They cost more to maintain, but they allow greater acceleration and deceleration and produce less noise/vibration than metal wheels.

And Michelin must have a phenomenal lobbying team if they managed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro#List_of_sys... (In particular, "didn't catch on outside France" is, well, just plain wrong.)

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Saturday November 25, 2023 @06:01PM (#38417549)
A lot of those are people movers in airports and whatever <2km long.

The list once you exclude that basically consists of

* France, which wanted a niche technology to export and maintain supply domination over

* China, Japan, and Korea, trying to replicate it

* Quebec, which often looks to France for planning inspiration

* Mexico and Chile, which were recipients of French development assistance that included using French suppliers

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by ekianjo on Saturday November 25, 2023 @08:31PM (#38418456)
> Japan trying to replicate it

What a silly assumption. They are not.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by vore on Sunday November 26, 2023 @12:24AM (#38419382)
There are plenty of rubber-tired metros in Japan. The Yurikamome to Daiba in Tokyo, for example.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by ekianjo on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:54AM (#38419952)
plenty is not the same as "a lot in %". There are actually VERY FEW of them, percentage wise, in Japan.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by coryrc on Sunday November 26, 2023 @12:48AM (#38419458)
It has the roughest ride of any public transit I took in Japan. Was very surprised.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by throwaway2037 on Monday November 27, 2023 @04:22AM (#38430119)
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:22AM (#38419844)
Replicate the industrial strategy, not the technology. Should’ve clarified.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by throwaway2037 on Monday November 27, 2023 @04:21AM (#38430106)

    Replicate the industrial strategy, not the technology.
I still don't understand what this sentence means. Can you provide an example?
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Monday November 27, 2023 @02:43PM (#38437175)
The East Asian economic miracles are all heavily export dependent. Part of the pillar of this industrial strategy is to heavily support emerging technologies, because they can then gain economies of scale, first mover knowledge, etc. This has happened before, with technologies like plasma screens, LCDs and LEDs, and is now happening in China with solar panels and electric cars. They have developed such advanced manufacturing capabilities so quickly and are now almost insurmountable market leaders, or at least major competitors.

Railways are also part of this strategy. China, Japan and Korea all export railway products from high speed rail to subways to monorails, and so in this context rubber tired metros are another niche technology to get an edge in. Note that this strategy doesn't always work; no one outside of these countries is very interested in maglev trains, for example.

---

The other part of this is development finance. Countries that do not have know-how with big infrastructure projects often look to international institutions to build projects and secure financing. And part of the deal is that if you take French money you must spend it on French suppliers, and this is true for basically any country doing this kind of lending, so basically the lender is getting both interest payments and spending towards its economy. The Chinese and Japanese compete a lot for railway projects in particular; Japan built the Taiwanese HSR and the Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City metros, China is currently building high speed rail in Thailand and Laos, etc.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by lores on Saturday November 25, 2023 @08:32PM (#38418462)
That smacks a lot of "aside from half the world, whoever is using this technology?"
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:23AM (#38419845)
Is it? Airport people movers are extremely niche.

Even in the countries where they exist, rubber tired metros are niche.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by shawabawa3 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:40AM (#38419910)
In a list of all metros, "recently constructed metros" will be a niche category

You can't retrofit rubber wheels easily so of course compared to all metros as a new technology it will be rare

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Sunday November 26, 2023 @05:34AM (#38420609)
The Chinese have nearly doubled the metros built in both number and mileage in the last two decades. And pretty much none of those are rubber tired either.

Rubber tired metros are also a niche in new metros.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by rob74 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:30AM (#38420841)
The Paris Metro lines using rubber tires are almost all retrofitted (line 1, 4, 6 and 11, only line 14 was operated with rubber tired trains from the start).

Retrofitting actually has some advantages for old lines with short station distances, tight curves and steep gradients, whereas new lines can be planned with the limitations of rail technology in mind.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by danhor on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:25AM (#38420820)
Those benefits have eroded a bit over time. Rail vehicles have become pretty good at acceleration and deceleration, with acceleration often being limited due to passenger comfort. Similarly high(er) grades of 8%-10% are now quite possible with high-performing vehicles.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by throwaway2037 on Monday November 27, 2023 @04:24AM (#38430140)
8-10% Woah: Where? Tokyo's Toei Oedo (circle) line is considered steep by modern standards and has special cars with "linear induction motors" that can traverse up to 5% grade.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by iggldiggl on Monday November 27, 2023 @05:41AM (#38430730)
Wikipedia claims reason for the linear motor on the Oedo line was a smaller loading gauge and therefore smaller tunnels required.

And generally speaking 5 % wouldn't be considered very steep at all by modern standards. Gradients up to 4 or even 5 % weren't uncommon even on older rapid transit systems dating from a century ago, and for modern multiple units I'd regard 4 to 6 % as about par for the course.

And in hilly terrain, a number of systems definitively go beyond that into the 8 – 10 % range, including some new built systems (e.g. the light rail systems in Stuttgart, Tenerife and Jerusalem).

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by seanmcdirmid on Saturday November 25, 2023 @03:31PM (#38416431)
One (or more?) of Paris metro lines is rubber wheel, the one up to la defense, rubber is simply better at climbing hills. The ouchy line in Lausanne is also rubber for the same reason (since it climbs from lake geneva up and up).

Unless you go with a rack railroad, or maybe a cable way, you are only climbing hills with rubber.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by creer on Saturday November 25, 2023 @04:39PM (#38416945)
Most use rubber wheels
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by seanmcdirmid on Saturday November 25, 2023 @04:59PM (#38417107)
According to wiki, just Lines 1, 4, 6, 11, and 14. So that leaves at least 9 that don’t (assuming continuous numbering).
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by creer on Saturday November 25, 2023 @05:10PM (#38417194)
So they say indeed! Interesting! I have lived there long enough and didn't notice. They are all pretty quiet. To be fair, it's possible to run on rubber and still mess it up, noise-wise, like BART does with gusto.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by SECProto on Saturday November 25, 2023 @06:30PM (#38417765)
> To be fair, it's possible to run on rubber and still mess it up, noise-wise, like BART does with gusto.

BART is standard steel track and steel wheel, just different wheel and rail profiles - plenty of resources if you wanna read about it

https://www.railwayage.com/news/bart-revised-wheel-profile-q...

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by inferiorhuman on Saturday November 25, 2023 @07:33PM (#38418164)
No, BART uses wheels with an aluminum center because reasons. But hey it helps makes things noisier, so why not?
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by inferiorhuman on Saturday November 25, 2023 @09:56PM (#38418760)
To follow up on my previous comment: BART is a master class in institutional incompetence, the Peter Principle in action if you will. So, yes, BART uses steel track and wheels with a steel outer surface but they've still managed to fuck it up ten ways from Sunday.

The article you linked to talks about all the money that BART's thrown at the noise problem without addressing the elephant(s) in the room: BART cars are aluminum tubes that are inherently noisy and BART wears its tracks aggressively. The first iterations had carpeted floors which absorbed some of the noise, but those got predictably gross.

Much of the track noise comes from corrugation because the wheels are dragged over the track. Other systems might grease their wheels so that there's more slip in turns, BART can't. Other systems sand the tracks in wet weather so you don't skid, BART can't. Modern systems have anti-skid systems so that you don't wear the wheels. Bombardier's anti-skid system is awful. So the new cars flat spot the wheels at a much higher rate than the old and you get noisy track (and noisy trains as they thump thump thump down the track). BART grind the rails and the noise goes away for a bit, but it eventually comes back with a vengeance because they're doing everything they can to avoid addressing the underlying problems.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by seanmcdirmid on Saturday November 25, 2023 @05:30PM (#38417349)
According to wiki, the only light rail running on rubber is the airport’s AirTrain. No mention of BART running on rubber at all, nor on its own wiki page. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro#List_of_s...
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by bobthepanda on Saturday November 25, 2023 @06:02PM (#38417559)
There are also the Translohr systems which are not metros and not trams but a kind of guided bus that intentionally kinda looks like a tram.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by warrenmiller on Saturday November 25, 2023 @03:40PM (#38416500)
the Taipei Metro Brown Line runs on rubber wheels too
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by agazso on Saturday November 25, 2023 @04:01PM (#38416637)
Mexico city too has rubber wheels on some lines
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by aylmao on Saturday November 25, 2023 @07:02PM (#38417986)
Yes, most lines actually (10 out of 12) [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_metro

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by speed_spread on Saturday November 25, 2023 @05:03PM (#38417140)
Montreal metro uses rubber wheels. It's the smoothest train ride you'll get in all of North America.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by euroderf on Sunday November 26, 2023 @03:40AM (#38420129)
and quiet too
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by mratsim on Saturday November 25, 2023 @07:21PM (#38418095)
I actually studied rubber wheels for metro in engineering class.

They are useful if stations are very near each other because of greater braking power, so you can stay decently fast in-between stations.

Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by nerdbert on Saturday November 25, 2023 @08:16PM (#38418370)
I can't imagine they're good for air quality in the stations.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by illiac786 on Sunday November 26, 2023 @02:31AM (#38419873)
They heat up. Line 4 gets horribly got in the summer because of it. At least that's what I was told by locals.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by kergonath on Sunday November 26, 2023 @03:52AM (#38420173)
They’re fine. They make for less noise, less vibration, and better acceleration. They might be more expensive to maintain and less common, but there is nothing archaic about them.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by sebazzz on Sunday November 26, 2023 @06:43AM (#38420889)
One interesting correlation I found is that the rubber tyre metro’s also have platform doors, and the steel wheel metro’s dont have doors on the platforms.
Re:The New Paris Métro Is Coming, and It's a Big Deal by catwell on Sunday November 26, 2023 @07:04AM (#38420996)
Not really. AFAIK there are platform doors on lines 1, 4, 14 and 13.

Lines 1, 4 and 14 have rubber tyres and platform doors because they are fully automated (or in the case of line 4 in the process of being fully automated). So far Paris only fully automates rubber tyres lines.

Line 13 has classic metal tyres and is only semi-automated, but it has platform doors because it is very high traffic. Most Parisians avoid line 13 at rush hours because it is probably the most packed line in the city.