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Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by CSMastermind on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:17PM (#38279320)
At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by happytoexplain on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:31PM (#38279559)
>If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

This is an oversimplification in three different ways:

1. One can be a proponent of remote work without claiming that it is "equal to or superior to in office work". Remote work is better for a subset of people and a subset of jobs. In-office work is better for a subset of people and a subset of jobs. The most common fallacy is that we must go all-in on one or the other. Having multiple people in a company, even on the same team, at different points on the all-remote to no-remote scale does not have to cause the mutual hindrance that leadership portrays it as doing.

2. Remote work has value for mental health, societal health, and work-life balance, which are things that may, abstractly, in the long-run, make a company more competitive, but it's subjective. The point is, "business absolutism" is a fallacy (i.e. the idea that a business must do whatever makes it the most money with no qualifications to that statement).

3. Disregarding #1 and #2, even if remote work was superior by business-benefiting metrics, the successful rise of all-remote companies would not be a prerequisite of nor a sure-sign of that statement. You would need controlled experiments, which are impossible in the business world. You can never, by the laws of reality, have a reasonable sample size of real-world businesses that are identical in every way except for remote work and "success".

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by Propelloni on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:11PM (#38280134)
While I agree in the macro perspective, the micro perspective shows a different picture. There is no need for a company to be all-in in one way or the other, but smaller units, eg. teams, should coordinate when they are remote and when on-site. Like a senior dev once told my young and unexperienced self: "If one is remote, we are all remote". Meetings with 3 people at a table and 3 remote are miserable. You are better off being completely remote, even if this is worse than all on-site. I have yet to see a remote meeting that offers the same bandwidth as a face-to-face on-site meeting.

That being said, Amazon is stupid for punishing people for WFH.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by QwertyPi on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:23PM (#38279443)
> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

Or they'll just buy you out. Competitive advantage doesn't work too well when your competitors have large moats of cash that you don't have access to.

Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by fishtoaster on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:32PM (#38279570)
You say "buy out" like it's a bad thing. Presumably that's a huge win for you if you started (or have equity in) the company - and if not, you can just... not accept the buyout offer?
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by the_svd_doctor on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:40PM (#38279689)
Yes but the idea is that competition should help the economy in surfacing "good ideas". If competition leads to acquisition all the time, then really there isn't much benefit to the overall economy.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by QwertyPi on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @04:21PM (#38282678)
> Presumably that's a huge win for you if you started (or have equity in) the company - and if not, you can just... not accept the buyout offer?

The issue is that this will not raise the working standards of the workers already working for the abusive employer, not that this can't be leveraged by a privileged few.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by maerF0x0 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:30PM (#38279532)
> they'll just buy you out

That would require you to sell. And if one is confident they can win in the marketplace then why sell to them when you can eventually flip the scenario and have them asking to be acquired?

Fully granted that in my experience, in the USA for the past long time, it's felt like Corporatism has made this scenario far less likely. But, perhaps that's more of a sign to start your company elsewhere. Perhaps America is no longer a good place to start a company.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by sonicanatidae on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:27PM (#38279481)
I agree. It's hard to wade through the headwinds of Scrooge McDuck piles of money working counter to you.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by deadeye on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:39PM (#38279664)
Unions are for people who can't compete on skill (or no longer wish to).

I'm not saying they are a bad thing necessarily, but they don't make sense in competitive markets.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by bugglebeetle on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:41PM (#38279692)
Yeah, that’s why NBA players have them. Because they can’t compete on skill.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by deadeye on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:50PM (#38279824)
I suppose that's a union by name. But for the millions of people in a real union, it isn't recognizable as one.

Most unions function to keep an established order where seniority matters more than capability and performance.

Besides sports unions, actors guilds, and other small examples, unions exist to provide a framework for collectivising unskilled labor into a unit of power, where individually they have none.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by jmopp on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:15PM (#38280200)
I would put a hypothetical software engineer's union in the same category as a sports union/actor's guild. Just as an actor has brand recognition and can leverage this or start their own productions, so can a skilled software engineer start their own company/be recognised in their craft. And beyond that, can you imagine what would happen if software engineers decided to strike? It has the potential to have a far greater impact than pretty much any other industrial action. If factory workers down tools for a week, production is delayed. If Google SREs down tools for a week, it might break the internet.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by Ironchefpython on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:10PM (#38280130)
Yeah, you handwave some of the most visible and effective unions in the United States (SAG-AFTRA, WGA), you're also ignoring education unions, healthcare unions, and many other careers where pay is not just about seniority, but also education, certification, specialization, and other factors.

Even unions in industries with legitimately undifferentiated labor will have shift differentials built into their contracts.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by bugglebeetle on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:51PM (#38281470)
No, it’s recognizable and sports unions often refuse to break picket lines for low wage workers:

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/blog/2023/sep/20/inter-...

What you’re doing is trying to craft a special definition of a union that excludes the most analogous unions to the one that software engineers could form and ignores the real examples of solidarity between professional class and other types of workers. See also the solidarity strikes against Tesla in Sweden. I won’t speak to your motivations in attempting to do so, but it doesn’t correspond to how labor organizing is actually practiced.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by Scarblac on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:45PM (#38279761)
Developers don't really compete on skill much.

Most importantly because companies have no good way of judging skill of developers.

And also because, in most companies writing business software, good enough is good enough.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by deadeye on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:51PM (#38279845)
That is the exact opposite of my experience.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by ako on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:46PM (#38279766)
There are many situations where employers are not interested in skills, they’re just looking to fill a position with the cheapest (licensed) person. There’s very little ROI in upgrading your skills in this situation.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by deadeye on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:53PM (#38279867)
I think we're saying the same thing. If that's what employers do then employees can't compete on skill.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by ako on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @05:39PM (#38283611)
Agreed, just wanted to stress the point that it is often not even an option for a potential employee to try and compete on skills.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by fragmede on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:56PM (#38279923)
Or for people that want better for themselves and their coworkers.

Listen, I know as SWEs, we're supposed to reject unions because we're paid so well, and listening to a lifetime of anti-union propaganda that leads to hilarious conclusions like the above. But reading some of the other threads complaining about work conditions that it sounds like a majority would like to avoid, not to mention some of the horror stories out of, eg, video game development studios, getting people to understand that, no, a union could be useful is, for some reason, an unhill battle. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to try and do deep work in an open office floor plan? if there were more conference rooms? If RTO wasn't a thing? If there was no deathmarch to make the upcoming release?

Because people who can compete on skill could band together and say "we're not putting up with open office floor plans".

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by dragonwriter on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:58PM (#38281584)
> Unions are for people who can't compete on skill (or no longer wish to).

I mean, the “on skill” part is superfluous, but, yes, it is definitionally true that a union is for workers that no longer wish primarily to compete with each other, and who realize that such competition is a race to the bottom that works against them and for the benefit of their employers.

All organized groups are rejections on some level of competition among the members in favor of cooperation for joint advantage.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by gwright on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:57PM (#38279939)
> Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. You seem to be suggesting that unions magically understand the best way to organize each and every workplace and that every employer should be required to organize its efforts according to the wisdom of "the union".

How about each company runs its business as it sees fit and each person decides on their own who they want to work for or perhaps just work for themselves? Systems that work thrive, systems that don't work wither away. Build in some social support for people to be able to move to new jobs or create new jobs/companies with as little friction as possible. For example:

ensure that substantial changes to a work arrangement must have a notice/grace period (no unforeseeable changes) * make health insurance independent from your employer * reduce occupational licensing regulations and require states to accept licenses from other states * simplify and streamline the creation and overhead of small/all companies (incorporation, taxes, reporting, etc.) * allow employers and employees/contractors to define the relationship that works for them without the ambiguous and irregularly enforced employee/contractor distinction in the tax code

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by QwertyPi on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:42PM (#38280583)
> You seem to be suggesting that unions magically understand the best way to organize each and every workplace

Yes, it's called "representing the needs of the worker".

> every employer should be required to organize its efforts according to the wisdom of "the union".

No, it's always a fight. The company is perfectly capable of using the piss-poor labor protections in this country to fight back.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by mitthrowaway2 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:19PM (#38279360)
Yes; unfortunately the counter to that is economies of scale, network effects, and cost of financing, all of which big established companies like Amazon have. If you're going to compete against Amazon, you can't be merely their equal.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by bcrosby95 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:23PM (#38279437)
Yeah, in the long term, all else being equal. I don't think either is such an advantage/disadvantage that it moves the needle either way, especially against a company like Amazon.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by georgemcbay on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:22PM (#38279428)
> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

Only if the competitive advantage of remote work is large enough to overcome all the other moats a company of Amazon's age and size has built. Which seems wildly unlikely (but this says very little about the competitive advantage of remote work one way or the other).

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by rewmie on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:43PM (#38279716)
> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

This is a stupid take, and one that is based on a simplistic idea that the success or failure of a business are determined solely on whether random workers working on random projects for random industries with random business models will work from home or from a random office in a random city. Truly stupid. It sounds like a desperate attempt to extend "might makes right" towards employee relations.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by crowcroft on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:44PM (#38279737)
I think about this quite a bit. If the WFH evangelists are right in saying that it is absolutely better to enable WFH then surely we will see those companies pull away from their peer group at some point.

My sense is that companies are highly complex and there are too many factors to weigh to say that WFH is 'better'. It's a bit of a truism, but a 'well run' company is going to perform better than a 'not well run' company, regardless of whether it's in-office, remote, or hybrid.

Being clear that the company is going to prioritize in-office and build the way they operate around that seems like a good signal that the company is 'well run'. Especially when the alternative I see are companies that hop around various 'hybrid' work policies that make no one happy, or worse yet avoid making any proper policy because they don't want to make a hard decision.

Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by rurp on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @12:48PM (#38279788)
That is happening to some degree, but is not nearly as simple as you make it sound. Much of the tech economy is dominated by one or a few large companies that have huge advantages over a newer entrant and that act in all kinds of anti-competitive ways, to great effect.
Re:Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comp... by herbstein on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:27PM (#38280362)
> At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces.

You'd think so. CrowdStrike, a self-proclaimed remote-first company, instituted a return-to-office policy earlier this year. Despite never requiring office presence before the pandemic. They still have blog posts like [1] on their website.

[1]: https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/the-perks-of-remote-work/