As a former smoker I think you didn't fully read the article und understood author's and other's thesis that it is actually not the nicotine that makes for the strong cigarette addiction.

There is no such thing as a cigarette addiction. Nicotine is the addictive chemical in cigarettes. Yes, method of consumption matters, but if you regularly consume an addictive chemical you are at risk to develop an addiction to that chemical, regardless of method (though not necessarily regardless of quantity).

Not really right.. but again you also either didn't read the article, didn't get the point, or strongly object it? (And also ignore authentic experiences other people give here)? Beyond nicotine, which is addictive yes, there is more in the cigarette cocktail (especially in nowadays highly optimized industrialized ones) that is also addictive. So there is such a thing as a cigarette addiction.

Or in other words: Why do people only get little addicted and can easily stop chewing nicotin gums, while for only a small percentage of smokers it is possible to quit via the nicotin gum replacement?

Or in even other words: Both coffeine and heroine are addictive, but we can agree that there are differences?

Third time I'm writing the same comment - nicotine addiction can be formed and sustained without tobacco. This is obvious.

Definitely, but that was neither questioned nor the point at all, shrug.

You might be overlooking a chemical conditioning element. A smoker gets a dopamine hit every time they take a pull from their cigarette. The smell, the sizzle, and the routine - all become associated with a reward pathway.

Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.

Exactly. What is the chemical element in a smartphone addiction? Or a pornography addiction?

What a shortsighted and close minded comment (talking about parent).

As I just said in another comment, the fact that people can maintain their nicotine addiction with vapes or patches or gum shows that the primary addictive substance is nicotine and it can be effectively addictive all by itself.

Do you have personal experience with a nicotine or tobacco addiction? Many of us may agree that nicotine is the _primary_ addictive substance but there are other considerations. It's not one size fit all and everyone is an individual.

You seem pretty confident about this despite there being thousands of chemicals in cigarettes and presumably the companies being very interested in hooking their users.

Lots of people manage nicotine addiction with the patch or gum or vapes. None of those contain the chemicals in tobacco, but all of them sustain the addiction.

Do they?

So I have some personal experience with nicotine in different formats. Cigars (not inhaled) and zyn packets you slip under your lip.

My experience is that nicotine is highly addictive based on dosage and delivery.

Cigars were in no way addictive, I suspect because the delivery of the nicotine takes quite a while.

The zyn though, I quickly ramped up from low dosages (1-3mg) to the higest dosages (10mg+). And at my worst I'd go through a 20 pack of those per day.

I tried quitting cold turkey multiple times from the zyn, failed each time. Tried slowly decreasing strength till I reached 3mg and then quit, that worked fine and was actually relatively easy.

I still smoke cigars, they just don't trigger the same reactions that the zyn did.

Strongly agree with the slow decrease method. One of the nice things about nicotine pouches/gum is they come pre-dosed so it's pretty simple in how to ramp down. Doing it is the tough part.

For more fine grained decreases I've used the 3mg, then 2mg, then split up pieces of nicotine gum (2 or 4 mg) to get down to like 1 and .5 mg doses.

I actually quit over the course of a week. Going from 10mg+ pouches down to 9, 6, 3 and finally quit.

Going from 3mg to no longer using was relatively straightforward.

Trying to quit from 10mg cold turkey was basically impossible. 4 days after going cold turkey I was still absolutely desperate for nicotine. The difference was massive.

I used to smoke cigarettes for many years. Over a decade. In the last few years of smoking, I tried to quit numerous times, trying to replace it with vaping because nicotine is what I'm addicted to, right? So I shouldn't have that hard a time, it's about breaking the physical habit not the drug addiction since I'm not quitting that. Often I would go a few months. The last failed attempt, withdrawals gave me panic attacks well into 3 months in. So I gave up, got some cigarettes, a year later I tried again and succeeded, I'm a few years smoke free.

I'm still addicted to nicotine, I vape. But I wake up, where my vape is is not the first thing I think about. I dont plan my day by how much nicotine I have left. When I get under the weather I can give it up for a few days with no problem. This is not the same addiction I had when smoking cigarettes, this is a milder, more casual thing, I don't get cravings, I get these small little desires for a puff. Whatever is going on with cigarettes, nicotine is only a small part of that. Quitting cigarettes is one of the hardest things I've ever done, I could not vape for the rest of the day and only feel a mild annoyance. In my experience the article is correct, there's something more going on with cigarettes than just nicotine.

The obvious question is whether there are other addictive compounds in cigarettes. I’ve heard stories like yours before.

They say there are MAOIs in tobacco that increase nicotine uptake, but I'm not entirely convinced that that's the sole culprit either. I could chew some tobacco right now, or smoke a pipe or cigar, I could even inhale it, and I wouldn't have a problem. If I were to smoke a single cigarette I'd be smoking a pack a day within a week and who knows how many months or years it would take me to rectify that. Whatever it is I suspect it's done deliberately in processing.

Tobacco contains Harmaline which is an MAOI - it both increases the bioavailability of nicotine as well as adding an additional psychoactive effect; stimulant + anti-depressant

I've recently started adding free base harmaline to my vape juice to create a proper tobacco substitute... I found that nicotine alone didn't provide the relaxation that I would get from smoking tobacco. After a fair amount of research I discovered that it was that lack of harmala compounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmala_alkaloid

Well, I'm past that addiction now so I don't want to try it to stir it up, but I've had pipe tobacco and cigar tobacco, as well as chewing tobacco since I quit cigarettes and I've never had them rope me back in even a little bit. So I think cigarettes have something else going on. Maybe I'm wrong.

I am curious though if this worked for you as a full substitute to sate cravings, and what amount you added.

Do some web research on the additives in cigarettes. What I have heard from people who do research into cigarette addiction is that the additives suppress the bad effects of smoking (such as coughing, lungs feeling burnt, not being able to breath, etc.) When you stop smoking you also stop getting the additives and you suddenly feel all the damage smoking has been doing, which makes it much harder to quit. You literally feel like hell when you stop.

That wasn't my experience. One of the drivers that pushed me to quit was loss of stamina and lung capacity, I was beginning to feel the impact on my health. Within 48 hours of quitting I could feel my stamina double, which is common among people who quit cigarettes. The feeling that drove me back every time but the last one was the intense anxiety from quitting, definitely a drug withdrawal and not a physical feeling of malaise. I don't think physical malaise is a common withdrawal symptom when quitting cigarettes.

Research anecdote here. I’m a psychologist in a different area and a friend who did his PhD in cocaine research with rats told me this.

Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug’s effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15% who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous but much less than smoking.

His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more and more rats showed little interest.

This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior and makes addiction less likely, often much less.

This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.

I’ve never heard this idea. It seems like coffee bucks this trend though? I’ll take 20 minutes to drink a cup but still wildly addicted.

I don’t think people are addicted to coffee in the same way they’re addicted to cocain

Agreed. I drink coffee because I like the taste and the caffeine gives a little boost. I could be said to be dependant on caffeine, as I get withdrawal symptoms on cessation (headaches) - but I feel no compulsion to drink coffee, as there would be with addiction.

You'd be surprised! Some people have as hard a time quitting coffee as they do nicotine. And lots of people do coke and never become addicted. It varies a lot from person to person, which is a fact that is underappreciated. Luckily, there is a lot of research now to support this.

I’m going to go ahead and generalize my own experience as an alcoholic, smoker, and coffee drinker with a highly addictive personality from a long line of addicts: It’s not remotely the same kind of addiction.

Waking up in the morning and finding I’m out of coffee is an issue on par with, I don’t know, waking up and finding we’re out of milk and I need to eat some toast instead of cereal. Not the way to start the day, but I’ll grumble and get through.

Waking up in the morning and finding out I’m out of nicotine is immediate 11/10 anxiety. My brain is focused only on how to get some. Can I make it to the store and back before my first meeting of the day? If it’s tight, I can be a bit late. If I can’t, I’m basically autopiloting myself through my morning until the first free minute I have to run out and get some. That is the _only_ thing on my mind.

From past experience, if I’m down to my last $10 and have the choice between food and coffee I’ll pick food. If I have the choice between food and cigarettes, I’ll pick cigarettes.

If I'm traveling, I'll take the risk that the hotel doesn't have coffee for some reason. I don't pack coffee in my suitcase. There's probably some mini-bottles or something in there though in case I can't get my hands on some alcohol along the way.

But cigarettes, not nicotine. I have used nicotine lozenges for weeks or months at a time when I need to concentrate on some critical projects and for me it has always been easy to stop, but I once was drinking 7 or 8 cups a day and decided I needed to stop and that took nearly a year and many terrible terrible headaches.

It also has to do with the size of the dopamine impact on the brain. Andrew Huberman's metaphor about a "wave" really helped me understand the concept of dopamine addiction in the brain.

>As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone who takes this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences.

That's the key thing there, "smoker". If you become addicted to nicotine via smoking tobacco, then you're possibly fucked, but nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.

I don't know why you take exception to some people or articles emphasizing the above, or that cigarettes are the major risk. It's mostly true and addiction by itself specifically to a cheap, easily available substance like nicotine, which doesn't devastate daily functionality or economic solvency as many other narcotics do, is not terrible by itself.

I understand what you're saying and have mixed feelings. My opinion is that a nicotine addiction is terrible no matter how it's consumed but smoking tobacco is the most harmful way to consume.

I was able to switch from chewing tobacco to nicotine pouches and gum but still feel the addiction is terrible.

> nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.

So, recently I had to learn that nicotine is super toxic and can be lethal or at least severely damaging to internal organs, especially for children, toddlers, babies, small animals (dogs, cats), etc.

Maybe Google it, or ask your doctor, if your assumption that "by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being" stands.

Are you referencing like pure nicotine liquids? Yeah vape juices that smell like jelly donuts, if a toddler/animal drinks a month supply in a few minutes it’s going to be bad news. Also, when people were mixing their own juices they’d be buying pure nicotine and getting poisoned.

“The dose makes the poison.”

Anyways, not going to list out all the pros and cons of nicotine as Andrew Huberman did that for us. He has a decent podcast that’s goes through it all.

No one really argues that it’s essential or beneficial in every way but it’s not the purported demon that the anti smoker lobby has made it out to be.

Many years ago, I heard the Japanese even put it into their drinks. I’ve tried searching for it now and found some iffy sources and outdated Reddit links and everything else is just e juice vape spam. Can any Japanese knowledgeable people confirm or deny this?

> Are you referencing like pure nicotine liquids?

Not going to discuss on your other arguments, just wanted to say that if anything smaller than a grown adult eats a cigarette or just plain tobacco, better call the doctor.

Why are you fucked? Being addicted isn’t bad in itself. Nicotine by itself has very few ill effects on the body and there are plenty of way to only get pure nicotine (gum, patch, vaping with unflavored liquids)

Dependence on a drug is not necessarily bad. Addiction absolutely is.

Addiction (substance use disorder) exists when a person exhibits two or more of the following symptoms: (1) impaired control, (2) social problems, (3) risky use, and (4) physical dependence.

Impaired control means using more of a substance or more often than intended; or wanting to cut down or stop use but not being able to.

Social problems includes things like neglecting responsibilities and relationships, abandoning activities the person used to care about, or failing to fulfill obligations at home, school or work - because of the substance use.

Risky use includes things like using in risky settings, continued use despite known problems, engaging in risky substance-related practices like sharing needles, risky sexual activity (because of, or in order to obtain the drug), and driving while intoxicated.

Physical dependence is needing more of the substance to get the same effect, or having withdrawal symptoms when a substance isn't used.

Two or three symptoms indicate mild substance use disorder. Four or five symptoms indicate moderate, and six or more indicate severe substance use disorder. When people talk about addiction, they are typically referring to severe substance use disorder.

Physical dependence and tolerance are not the same as addiction. Substance use disorder is by definition problematic.

That’s just generic boilerplate addiction literature. None of those apply to nicotine. It’s cheap, legal and doesn’t have enough of an effect to be a public disorder risk. No one is committing domestic violence or impaired driving while being purely “hopped up on nicotine”. The most you might get is someone holding up a store to incidentally steal cigarettes while they go for what’s in the cash register, but that’s about it.

I didn’t say anything about nicotine. You wrote that “Being addicted isn’t bad in itself.”

Addiction is bad by definition.

That is what I was replying to.

What you are brushing off as “boilerplate” are the DSM-5 criteria for substance use disorder — colloquially known as addiction.

We’re clearly talking about nicotine in this thread. Your boilerplate addition did nothing to address anything about a nicotine addiction. Not all of them are the same- there is a stark difference in being addicted to caffeine and being addicted to heroin. Copy pasting information without context adds nothing useful.