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Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by dougmwne on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:07AM (#38220550)
> … who produce some thing valuable for the community.

I think you are cleaning up his values. He clearly seems to be pointing to a few people who produce novel ideas and creations as opposed to the mass of people who never create much of value globally out of their lives.

And actually, this statement used to be uncontroversial. Social media and the death of journalism means that our best thinkers no longer have much of a platform. It may be easy to forget and unpopular to remember, but there are some exceptional and brilliant people out there.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by ekianjo on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:34AM (#38220907)
> Social media and the death of journalism means that our best thinkers no longer have much of a platform.

Journalism was never great to begin with

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by vkou on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:02PM (#38221307)
> And actually, this statement used to be uncontroversial.

Indeed. The social value and inherent virtue of kings, high-priests, and robber-barons used to be beyond reproach.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by lapphi on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:04PM (#38222210)
True but in the context of the quote I don’t think Einstein would have viewed them as people that made valuable contributions to society. Probably would have placed them in the former category, honestly.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by bugglebeetle on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:26PM (#38222541)
Einstein was a socialist, so this is likely not to whom he was referring. While undoubtedly an elitist, I’m sure he counted the leaders of industry among the dullards and buffoons. You’d honestly have to be pretty dumb yourself to put them on the same level of his peers in science, like, say, Von Neumann, even though that’s very much the order of the day in modern America.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by 7thaccount on Saturday November 11, 2023 @09:07AM (#38230382)
Reading about Von Neuman is pretty crazy and shows how wide the gap is between people who are only highly intelligent and geniuses like he that made contributions to so many fields.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by dclowd9901 on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:32PM (#38222624)
And which of those types would you categorize as a person who “contributes something of value to the community”?
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by dbtc on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:08PM (#38223856)
We still have our stars.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by gardenhedge on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:21PM (#38221572)
Surely there is a list of them?
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by scythe on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:51PM (#38222036)
We should also consider that when our perception of things has changed, perhaps it is because the things we are seeing that changed. The average person in Einstein's day received a much inferior education to what schools offer today, and scientific progress was much more rapid. 1939 is only a few years after the end of the era of radioactive quackery, and in the thick of eugenics and "scientific" racism and sexism, while some leading scholars had begun to question this dogma. Fascists and their sympathizers controlled more than a dozen countries, many with significant popular support.

Today, the gap between scholars and the public is probably much narrower. This is certainly the case in physics, and I would think in biology and chemistry as well. I believe the only fields where the gap has significantly grown are computer science and pure mathematics, simply due to rapid progress in those fields.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by shkkmo on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:59PM (#38222141)
> Today, the gap between scholars and the public is probably much narrower.

I would argue the opposite. Each field of study has so much more depth now that on any given topic there is more that a layperson has to learn to be on par.

Lay people do tend to be much broader generalists (at least in terms of scientific understanding) than they were in 1939 but they are further behind the specialists.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by AlecSchueler on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:06PM (#38222252)
Doesn't this sub-thread conflate intelligence with knowledge?
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by mikebenfield on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:32PM (#38223408)
I think I'll grant that there are more educated and competent people than there used to be.

But broadly the gap between scholars and "the public" is as massive at it's ever been. Meet a few members of "the public" socially, outside of tech or academic circles or however you usually meet people. Go to some random bar or club or whatever and make some friends. I think you'll find, like I do, that most people basically don't know anything. They can sort of do 3rd grade arithmetic, but struggle to apply it, and don't know anything else about mathematics - most people don't understand how to use negative numbers or what they're for, for instance. They don't know anything about history - they don't really know what the Renaissance was, or when the Roman Empire was, or when and where human civilization began, or anything else. They absolutely know nothing about physics - they are completely unaware of the idea that acceleration due to gravity is not dependent on mass, which I see as the starting point of teaching physics.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by nlavezzo on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:00PM (#38223753)
I think your characterization of "the public" outside of tech / academia (and I'd add medicine, finance, a few other professions) is pretty accurate in terms of academic knowledge.

Swap the places though and send someone who's held various mechanic, repair, manufacturing roles to a high end cocktail bar full of academics and let them ask questions on topics they know, and they'll be shocked (or maybe not) at how most of these academics basically don't know anything about how the nuts and bolts machinery that keeps the world running actually functions in real life, and certainly couldn't do most of the work themselves. They'd probably also come away thinking they'd rather have a random person from their dive bar in Nebraska help them for a day at work on a hard project than one of the people in the fancy bar.

Without being able to rely on these masses of the un-academic "public" to run the world they live in, the academics would largely be helpless and their knowledge useless as they starved to death as the world crumbled around them.

Specialized knowledge and training is amazing, and it allows us to advance as a civilization, but I don't think the average "academic" is much more intelligent or capable in the raw sense than the average person in "the public". Both are needed for society to function and progress. Without the academics there will be no progress, and without the public it will all break down.

Of course, there are also people who have little useful knowledge / skills / motivation either practical or academic. These people can however just as easily exist in the social / family circles of the elite, as in those of the public, so I don't think it's fair to throw them in either group for judgment.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by snordgren on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:50PM (#38226847)
The idea that blue collar and white collar workers are equally intelligent on average might feel good, but is easily disproven as intelligence has been shown to be highly correlated with educational attainment.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by confidantlake on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:07PM (#38224548)
Huh I always thought acceleration due to gravity is a combination of both mass and distance. That is why gravity is so much stronger on earth than on the moon.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by HPsquared on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:13PM (#38225251)
The force on the object is proportional to its mass. Acceleration, being (force/mass), is therefore not dependent on mass. (Ah least, for a small object being attracted to a much larger body)
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by n3150n on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:01PM (#38225741)
Indeed it is, but the second body's mass may be neglected if it is orders of magnitude smaller than the larger body. Or at least that's how I understand it (I'm not a physicist).
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:34PM (#38223449)
It is interesting to compare the number of believers that Earth is flat today and then. Or that Jews are root of all evils.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by Anotheroneagain on Saturday November 11, 2023 @02:06AM (#38228180)
I think this is a threat on its own. Education isn't everything, and may even backfire with dumb people. You know, there are people who are somewhat dumb, they figure a lot of things out, but they do know that they need a lot of help, and that they are not exactly geniuses.

But once a person's intelligence gets too low, they can't figure out anything. But, they can still learn. They don't see anything wrong with them, they think it's how the world works, people know and can do things that somebody taught them. When they see somebody figure something out, they think it's something they learned in the past, but are dumb and evil people who laugh at them for not knowing. Stupid and evil peoppe who refuse to pass on what they were taught. And they never figure out that they aren't normal, or even think that they're brilliant, because they remember more than others.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by shkkmo on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:53PM (#38222061)
> He clearly seems to be pointing to a few people who produce novel ideas and creations as opposed to the mass of people who never create much of value globally out of their lives.

The reason why it is clear that this is not what he is doing is the rest of the text. He starts by saying that his time is rich in inventive minds. It doesn't really make sense to assert that a couple of sentences later he is arguing that the reason we have war and poverty is a lack of more inventive minds.

For context, remember this statement comes from a time when his homeland is in the grip of the Nazis and WW2 was just beginning. Why would he tell the future that there a smart people and stupid people and the problems are the fault of stupid people?

Especially given the ending I read this note with a tone of hopeful despair about our ability to overcome the emergent failings of large groups. So far I'd say he'd probably be disappointed, but we still have 4916 years to figure it out.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by dclowd9901 on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:28PM (#38222564)
Yeah. At first blush, it seems like an unnecessary condemnation, but the comparison here is between those who contribute and those who do not.

I believe I fall into the latter of the two, but also know folks who fall into the former. I would say pretty bluntly that they are definitely more intelligent and have better character than I do. Probably by an order of magnitude, were it something quantifiable.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by johndhi on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:21PM (#38224005)
Your humility makes me question your supposedly ill character!
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by boringg on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:04PM (#38223805)
Its more important to be able to shout the loudest with the most amount of people than provide anything of value.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by mock-possum on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:05PM (#38223816)
Wait why should social media mean less of a platform for our best thinkers? Sure social media provides not only additional platforming, but access to a far broader audience than Einstein could have possibly imagined?
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by trey-jones on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:19PM (#38223981)
Social media doesn't allow for well-reasoned discourse. 140 characters generally aren't enough to change the world. And the masses are on social media.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by mathgeek on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:34PM (#38224145)
Twitter isn’t the breadth of social media.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by ben_w on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:50PM (#38226116)
Even here on HN, there's a strong bias towards shorter messages. Phones, perhaps due to on-screen keyboards, seem to encourage shorter messages than laptops and desktops.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by codpiece on Friday November 10, 2023 @07:33PM (#38226377)
not true
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by willis936 on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:33PM (#38224131)
The signal is 4 orders of magnitude below the noise floor.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by HPsquared on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:09PM (#38225209)
The dynamic range is very wide.
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by dbtc on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:07PM (#38223834)
I think it can be both. The few who stand out do so mostly or entirely because they are separated from mass mentality. Maybe a Chicken and egg sort of thing. And then the quote about the difference between genius and insanity comes to mind.

This is the Jungian concept individuation.

Can you recommend any brilliant exceptions that come to mind? Especially in journalism.

Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by wpasc on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:51PM (#38224352)
Ed Witten is uncharacteristically brilliant and yet he (in my opinion) fell prey to the “masses” of physicists who clung to String theory despite its inability to yield results. Imo, that’s a counter example to your point. Thinking differently than other people and outside the masses doesn’t make one smart, take any non Ted Kasinski serial killer
Re:Albert Einstein in 1939 composed a message for the people... by demondemidi on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:59PM (#38224443)
I've read several bios on Einstein. There's nothing in any of his correspondence or opinions even remotely close to Ayn Rand's monstrosity called objectivism.