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Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @07:51AM (#38083353)
If your business model depends on tracking, you should go out of business.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:09AM (#38083534)
That is a position that only the privileged can take. There are a lot of people who are happy to pay for services with personal info rather than cash because they have to save what little of the latter they have to pay for things like food and shelter.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:22AM (#38083666)
"Happy to" is quite a stretch. Being forced into having your privacy invaded due to economic circumstances does not make such practices acceptable.

If all the privacy-violating companies go out of business, there will be plenty of underserved customers for companies with more legitimate business models.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:32AM (#38083772)
> "Happy to" is quite a stretch.

No, I don't think so. I think most people would choose to pay with info rather than cash even if they have the cash simply because they don't fully grasp the actual cost to them. People make foolish (from my perspective) economic decisions all the time. I am currently traveling in the American south where I am surrounded by shockingly vast numbers of morbidly obese people who willingly trade their health for a sugar rush. No one is holding a gun to these people's heads and forcing them to drink sugary soda and eat fried food, but they do it anyway. They do it because they like it, and because they don't think about (or don't care about) the long-term consequences. People are (again, from my perspective) stupid. But I don't think it should be the role of government to save people from their own stupidity. That is a very slippery slope.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by gsich on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:44AM (#38083925)
People don't have that choice so it's speculation either way.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:47AM (#38083973)
Do you seriously doubt that if they had the choice that many people would willingly and knowingly avail themselves of it?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by zo1 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:31AM (#38084529)
People get the choice all the time with loyalty and reward points cards. It's pretty much a unique identifier that people carry in their pockets and handover willingly every time they make a purchase. It's more obvious and in-your-face sure, but the principle is the same and they have the choice.

Personally, I handover all my fitness information, driving habit information, spending and banking and investing information, my health information, even my location data, my STD statuses, etc to a company so I can get massive discounts on a bunch of stuff in various ways. It alters my behavior in a good way, it alters other peoples' behavior too, and I'm all the more happier about it. I much prefer this over stupid things like sin taxes, consumption taxes and laws that most people don't stick to or agree with (talk about choice and consent, huh).

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by gsich on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:02AM (#38084178)
Maybe. But as of now: there is no choice.

People also chose to use Netflix or Steam (and other streaming platforms) instead of pirating. Last one would (and still is) be free. So it's not unprecedented.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lostlogin on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:46AM (#38083957)
> They do it because they like it, and because they don't think about (or don't care about) the long-term consequences. People are (again, from my perspective) stupid.

Another reason for this is addiction. Addiction has people doing things that aren’t in their best interest despite them being otherwise intelligent humans.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by ta1243 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:14AM (#38086092)
How much brainwashing does it take before you don't 100% blame the person making the poor decision?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lupire on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:33AM (#38083788)
I assume you are volunteering to pay taxes to compensate them for the extra expense for products and services?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by JoshTriplett on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:45AM (#38083935)
Yes, I would love to see UBI happen, either with a new tax, or better yet the repurposing of existing ones.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by troupo on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:46AM (#38084732)
Ads do not require pervasive and invasive tracking, or selling user data to the highest bidder
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by zo1 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:25AM (#38084451)
A lot of people simply don't care about "having your privacy invaded". I've yet to be convinced, and I'm even a technical person.

Even the words words "privacy" and "invaded" are such loaded and ambiguous language, I don't see how smart tech people are playing along with it as if it's some sort of innate human right in the electronic sense. You have to convince us, you don't get to just skip a few steps and tell us we're all crazy plebs that don't understand the implications of this thing you decided has to be the case. Hence the comment about this attitude being privileged (elitist).

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by Bjartr on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:29AM (#38083739)
And this law doesn't disallow that! It's just those people who are happy to do so need to opt-in.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by catapart on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:35AM (#38083826)
Exactly!

Personally, I would love to see the kind of offers companies would start to make for opt-in tracking. In a much cooler world, people would be able to sell their data, as subscriptions, to companies, with premiums placed on more 'valuable' data at whatever given time, based on advertiser interest.

Of course, no data tracking would be ideal, for me. But if someone wants to sell their personal data, they should at least be able to sell it for a market price.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by throw10920 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:09AM (#38084271)
Being able to see the market price of their data would also help people to realize how valuable it is, which would enhance privacy awareness.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by catapart on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:15AM (#38084345)
Right? And it's not like the equation changes, for advertisers. The only difference in this scheme than the current one is that it doesn't allow for such severe money-pooling. Still some! Obviously facebook would have a great and well-vetted network of advertisers that they could connect you with, which would surely incur some maintenance cost. But being able to opt-in to someone's ad services would be just another way to prove the cost of a service (in this case, social media) to consumers. It's just wins, all the way around.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by nickpp on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:37AM (#38084600)
GDPR actually disallows refusing service to people who opt out of tracking.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by Bjartr on Thursday November 02, 2023 @09:20AM (#38113138)
Isn't this German law specifically, not the gdpr?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by nvm0n2 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:06PM (#38087007)
It does in fact disallow that.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by georgesimon on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:32AM (#38083767)
Choosing the least worse of two things is not fair consent.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:34AM (#38083794)
That's true, but it doesn't apply in this case because there is a third option: don't use the service.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by alkonaut on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @02:02PM (#38088867)
That’s why any reasonable regulation tries to address that by saying the provider basically can’t do that e.g in the example of behavioral advertising. Basically you can show the page with dumb ads to users who don’t consent but you can’t say “you need to let us show the ads which pay more because otherwise we can’t keep the lights on”.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:59AM (#38097606)
> you can’t say “you need to let us show the ads which pay more because otherwise we can’t keep the lights on”.

Yeah, I get that. What I'm sating is: that's a stupid rule. Why should I not be able to say that, especially if it's the truth?

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by georgesimon on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:43AM (#38095877)
It happens that schools will provide updates only on Facebook, and ISPs only provide support on Twitter, so the there is not always a third option.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:59AM (#38097600)
That's a problem with the school or the ISP, not Facebook.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by georgesimon on Saturday November 04, 2023 @12:37PM (#38142617)
That is a position only the privileged can take.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by ta1243 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:59AM (#38084134)
The only reason a company wants to track them is to extract more money from them than they spend on tracking them.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:08AM (#38084259)
Yes, companies sell products for more money than they cost to produce. It's called "capitalism". And your point would be...?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by ta1243 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:13AM (#38086070)
That being tracked costs you more money than not being tracked

If you can't afford to pay $5 cash, you certainly can't afford to pay the $6 the firm that's tracking you will make from tracking you.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by almostnormal on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:06AM (#38085023)
> That is a position that only the privileged can take. There are a lot of people who are happy to pay for services with personal info rather than cash because they have to save what little of the latter they have to pay for things like food and shelter.

What's the value of a persons data if that person cannot afford any of the products which are advertised using that data? On the other hand, persons on a limited budget are sometimes most happy to spend money unwisely.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by autoexec on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @06:49PM (#38092440)
Your views on the data market seem to be as narrow as your views on poor people.

The collection, buying, and selling of your personal data isn't always about ads. The data people have on you is increasingly used to determine what you can and cannot do, what opportunities you're offered, how much you pay for things, even how long you're left on hold when you call a company.

The data companies collect about you can get you arrested, can be used against you in family court, or prevent you from getting a job.

Even ads themselves aren't always about what you buy. Ads are often used to manipulate you, change the way you see the world, even change the way you vote.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by Nextgrid on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:39AM (#38085566)
Paying with personal data/advertising is an illusion.

People who buy ads or buy your personal data don't do so out of the goodness of their hearts. They do so in order to make up not only the cost of buying the ad/data in the first place but extract more money out of you, one way or another.

This means it should always be cheaper to just pay for the service yourself then "pay" via ads or exploitation of your personal data, since the latter involves more middlemen that want their cut.

The fact that poor people can currently "freeload" off the system is an artifact of imperfect targeting rather than intentional generosity on the advertisers' part to subsidize the poor population, and will be quickly closed off the second there will be a way to reliably distinguish the purchasing power of a user as to deny service to those whose ad views aren't profitable enough (as they would never be able to purchase the advertised products).

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by belorn on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:00AM (#38085888)
It is only the privileged that is allowed to have any choice in their live in what they can do and what can be done to them. When the option is to die to starvation or the elements then anything, really anything, is better.

This is why many governments are in general responsible to provide enough social support that turns all citizens into privileged people.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by wzdd on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:46AM (#38086656)
I urge you to step back and look at your comment, which is essentially "tracking as a business model is morally justified because it means that poor people can use Google", and think about other, potentially significantly more efficient, ways that this problem might be solved without needing to preserve the bottom-of-the-barrel status quo.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:57AM (#38097586)
> tracking as a business model is morally justified because it means that poor people can use Google

No, that's not my position. My position is: tracking as a business model is morally justified if it is done with informed consent. A business arrangement is morally justified even if it has potentially deleterious side-effects to one of the parties so long as it is entered into with informed consent.

People buy and sell tobacco and firearms and motorcycles and junk food despite the fact that these products potentially have negative impacts on people's lives that are at least as serious as tracking. One could argue (and some do) that selling Coca Cola is not morally justified, but that position is hardly the slam-dunk that you imply.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by alkonaut on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @01:59PM (#38088833)
It could be seen that way, although I disagree with that viewpoint. For the same reason I don’t think it’s privileged perspective to ban organ sales because someone would need to sell a kidney to eat.

I’m going to keep ensuring that this possibly-only-good-for-the-privileged world is realized and I think modern privacy regulation like the GDPR helps, which is why I’m supportive of it.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by lisper on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:45AM (#38097479)
> I don’t think it’s privileged perspective to ban organ sales because someone would need to sell a kidney to eat.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about that. Have you ever actually faced that choice? I haven't. Until I have, I don't think I'm in a position to make that decision on someone else's behalf.

Here's another thing to consider: we allow people to put their lives at risk in exchange for money and social prestige by joining the military. The only substantive difference I see between that and selling an organ is that the latter doesn't provide any tangible benefits to the elites who make the rules whereas the former does.

Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by Almondsetat on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:06AM (#38083506)
My parking lot business depends on tracking the license plates of who enters and who exits
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by sensanaty on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:15AM (#38083577)
Does it then proceed to track each license plate and their movements once outside the parking lot, keeping a note of every single place where the license plate goes and parks in order to build a profile on that license plate so that you can sell that info off and shove ads down their throats?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by gonzan on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @05:58AM (#38096362)
That’s not how most people use cookies, just google & co. I’m using an in-house analytics app platform that uses cookies to track how often visitors use the app but we do no tracking at all outside of our website, we just want to know how often people use our site
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by polygamous_bat on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @08:12AM (#38083563)
Cool, as long as you’re not tracking them everywhere else out in the world, shouldn’t be an issue.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by kybernetikos on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:16AM (#38084357)
I think this is an actual example of 'legitimate interest' under GDPR (unlike most of the websites that claim it). There would still be an expectation that you didn't use that data for anything else and got rid of it as soon as it was no longer needed.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by nickpp on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @09:35AM (#38084584)
Arguing 'legitimate interest' in front of a non-tech judge in one of the many EU countries where a local agency implements GDPR would be... not fun.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by josefx on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @01:21PM (#38088250)
I bet that kind of use of license plates is older than any judge still alive. The hard part is convincing the judge that you can't implement it without sharing the data with two dozen web services.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by BobaFloutist on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @12:33PM (#38087464)
Do you retain the license plate information after they exit the business?
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by alkonaut on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @01:32PM (#38088413)
You don’t need consent for that under any data regulation I know of. So long as you don’t keep it any longer than you need to, don’t sell the info or use it to target people with ads etc then you are fine. What you are referring to here isn’t a problem.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by matheusmoreira on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @01:59PM (#38088832)
Only for the purpose of tracking how much time each vehicle was parked so you can charge them for that time. Absolutely nothing else. You should also be legally required to delete that information immediately after the transaction is done.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by SoftTalker on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @02:46PM (#38089501)
You're more likely going to be required to keep that information for a period of time for audit purposes, or to be able to justify a credit card charge in case there is a claim of fraud, etc.
Re:German court declares Do Not Track to be legally binding by 8note on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @03:41PM (#38090356)
I could easily build you a system that has no dependency on license plates.

For most of my life, it's been done with tickets you buy at a booth and put in your dash, then you use the ticket to exit