News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dalbasal on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:44AM (#37888378)
"Search results plagued with ‘clickbait’ would have been an understatement 20 years ago.

The parts of the open web you access from Google/search (most of it) is almost entirely made-for-google' ranking algorithims.

The situation is worse than it is on closed social media, including Google's YouTube.

Professional YouTubers are also making content for rankings above all, but the fact that it's their own face/voice keeps some of the rot at bay.

Google is literally content made by uninterested copywriters exclusively for Google rankings.

I was recently looking for general travel advice on Google. I found it completely impossible. The content is all written by people (or ais) that had never visited. Everything reads like a middle school essay.

I often resort to searches in a smaller language, where economic incentives are 100X smaller than English.

Google created incentives for littering the web with garbage. Then they took away incentives for anyone else to even bother.

Google killed the thing that gave them life. They gave Vince Serf a sinecure and a hows-your-mother for the rest.

Thieves.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by jorvi on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:08AM (#37888495)
“site:reddit.com” saves the day, but I feel very uneasy doing so ever since they did their nasty API + demodding ploy.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by V1ndaar on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:14AM (#37888526)
Honestly, the "golden days" of using reddit for that purpose are over, too. Both the fact that random other crap comes up due to how stuff is linked on reddit and generally most search engines being too lenient with your search terms and finally more and more conversation going to discord and other places that cannot be searched.

It really is one of the most unfortunate things of the modern internet. :(

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by clnq on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:31AM (#37888581)
Reddit is very wrong about almost every discipline I have experience in and can speak on as an expert. I feel like I'd suffer from Gell-Mann amnesia if I paid it any mind.

I think there's a good degree of pseudo-intellectualism on the site. Not necessarily in the conduct, but in claims of knowledge and the certainty they present it with.

There was a period in my life I've been active on Reddit myself. Looking back on that period in my life, I presented many strong and celebrated opinions there without much basis in reality. I'm not beyond blame for this, just stating an observation.

From my perspective, Reddit works as a validation machine, where validation is given somewhat randomly. It's like a self-service bias entrenching device. So perhaps it's natural to see pseudo-intellectual content there written by people such as my younger self.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by foooorsyth on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:56AM (#37888696)
Reddit is awful for anything controversial, but it’s good for uncontroversial hobby communities. If I need recommendations on new hockey skates, Reddit is a good place. It basically replaced independent phpBB forums of old — which were even better and less subject to sweeping centralized policy changes like all their subreddit replacements are now.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by clnq on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:27AM (#37889188)
I disagree, but probably because we have different definitions of "good".

To me, "good" means quite high quality. Like an expert sharing their thoughts in their niche. If you wish to use these thoughts, they will be very reliable and correct.

If you consider "good" to be anything that is not "bad" or "harmful", then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

My niche of tech is full of hobbyists and enthusiasts who want to participate in it - it's a part of the video games industry. And there is a very large amount of misleading knowledge on Reddit. Of course, even misleading knowledge can push people generally in the right direction, so I don't see the discourse as harmful. But I also don't see it as of particularly high quality. It might be "good" on some terms, or "neutral" on others.

With hockey skates - I'm not an expert. But I would expect that the recommendation on Reddit won't have to do with materials, blade quality, ankle support, footbeds, tongue design, heat moldability, weight distribution, holders and runners, energy transfer, foot health features and similar things that you could find on expert forums. I would expect that the recommendation would be based on entry-level things, like what feels good, or what brand is popular. This is not to say that this advice has no value. There is value. But they might not consider how materials might limit skill growth, how there is a knowledge gap in fit assessment in most new skaters, or how different skates protect the skater's feet from injury.

There is value in some advice, just not enough to consider it "good", in my opinion. Others might have different opinions.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by kjkjadksj on Sunday October 15, 2023 @01:01PM (#37891421)
Also the reason why a given product is even endorsed or even put in the sidebar of a given subreddit, is often from a concerted advertising campaign users are simply blind to.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by TheCoelacanth on Monday October 16, 2023 @11:10AM (#37900906)
Reddit mostly operates at the advanced beginner level. If you're a complete novice, it will help you avoid the most obvious mistakes, but it's not going to help you on topics where you already have in-depth knowledge.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by jorvi on Friday October 20, 2023 @09:07AM (#37955486)
> My niche of tech is full of hobbyists and enthusiasts who want to participate in it - it's a part of the video games industry. And there is a very large amount of misleading knowledge on Reddit. Of course, even misleading knowledge can push people generally in the right direction, so I don't see the discourse as harmful. But I also don't see it as of particularly high quality. It might be "good" on some terms, or "neutral" on others.

I vehemently disagree. Check something like: https://old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/ug0ii6/digital_found...

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by mrkramer on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:46AM (#37888961)
When you need to find useful information on the web, people on Reddit are better than any search engine. Nothing yet beats human mind.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by wwweston on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:04PM (#37891907)
Not to mention that the incentive to seo/market/spam reddit grows in proportion to people relying on it.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by seydor on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:09AM (#37888500)
It's odd that reddit has not surpassed google in profits
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by holoduke on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:07AM (#37888754)
I always add +forum and end up at conpletely unknown personal websites with sometimes great advice.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by gardenhedge on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:07AM (#37889845)
Wow, that is a new one for me. Thanks.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by tpmx on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:11AM (#37888771)
Many product/brand-specific subreddits are infiltrated by marketing teams.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by ykonstant on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:04AM (#37889056)
Precisely my predicament; I had contributed a lot of technical and mathematical content in Reddit, and got tons of content in response; but I can no longer engage with it in good faith.

Unfortunately, none of the alternatives capture or even understand the point of reddit. They focus on secondary features like decentralization, when the primary appeal of reddit is the network of communities (that are, furthermore, properly threaded, moderated forums) at the same place, using the same format, accessed with a single user identity.

In fact, precisely this aspect of reddit is what made it accumulate so much genuine information, and the reason it has replaced raw Google search for many kinds of questions. (well, it is definitely not the horrible facebook-post-like-with-no-discussion functionality they have been pushing forever).

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by medion on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:57AM (#37888445)
Amen.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by resolutebat on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:56AM (#37888700)
> I was recently looking for general travel advice on Google. I found it completely impossible.

Try Wikivoyage, the Wikipedia Foundation's open travel guide. Listings are a mixed bag, but the general advice is often spot on.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by Kye on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:50AM (#37888981)
Everyone centralizing around a few sources to deal with the web turning to garbage is a symptom of the problem. Google should return travelogues and official websites for locales, maybe offer hotel and flight bookings, not an endless scroll of spun and AI-generated trash.

They shouldn't have to site:wikivoyage.org just to find anything useful. You shouldn't need site:reddit.com to make general searches useful. This is broken.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by lacrimacida on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:28AM (#37890028)
It’s broken for us but I would argue it isn’t for google, they cash in on advertising handsomely and that what they only care about. If they noticed a trend they thought was not okay they easily could have done something about it. They didn’t.

Nowadays they’re cracking down on ad blockers on youtube, because that’s what they care about: ads

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dalbasal on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:37AM (#37890118)
You know, I don't think they can anymore.

The web is not what itwas, so they can't just "revert." They need talent, execution, ideas. IDK if websearch still has that at google. A possibility of big(ish) ideas about how websearch should be.

Innovators' Dilemma, and just general difficulty of changing core things that don't change often. Google are optimizers. Local plateaus are hard to beat.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by t0bia_s on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:05AM (#37888748)
Because there is audience that like garbage and clickbaits. We need to learn how consume digital media and have this stimuli under control.

For example there are plugins like Unhook that let you stop autoplay or suggested videos to show on YT. It's so refreshing to watch YT only for purpose that you initially come for, without garbage distractions...

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by theGnuMe on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:36AM (#37888905)
I guess the lonely planet books are still valuable.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by wood_spirit on Sunday October 15, 2023 @09:39AM (#37889618)
Yes. We’d used one to do a backpacking adventure a twenty years ago but kinda forgotten about them. But recently went on a sun holiday and quickly got frustrated by the normal websites and travel blogs found online, and instead brought them the LP and also the Rough Guide. Both were soooo much better content and advice than the online blogs. (My pref was for LP).
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by blululu on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:20AM (#37889953)
Lonely Planet travel guides are fantastic value. If you are going to spend >$500 to visit a foreign country/culture, spending $20 to learn the basics is cheap. And the practical knowledge can easily cover the cost of the book. I recently picked up one of these for a trip to Bosnia, and it offered a wealth of information about the country. The writer had a deep understanding of the country, the culture, the language and what you should know and what you should see. Even the restaurant recommendations were solid. If you are going to spend 8 hours traveling you ought have enough time to learn the basics of the place you are going to visit and lonely planet does a great job providing a high quality summary.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:37AM (#37888913)
I dreamed of building a website like the type I grew up on in the late 90s and early 2000s. The gamefaqs, mrfixitonlines and casterrealms-type websites for me were at the forefront of making this internet medium to be better than books, voice or anything else for that matter for the transmission of information.

Fast forward 20 years later. I think I've spent close to 300k on the website and team to help with it. I don't even want to think about my own labor costs. These days the google results for my niche are entirely dominated by an ugly purple wordpress blog ran by non-native English speakers that gets hacked every few months with a redirect to porn or russian sites. Their information is frequently wrong. It doesn't hurt their rankings at all. Yoast through it bro. Keep up the great work Google.

The entire story was posted on twitter last year by some shocked SEO researcher last year https://twitter.com/paulk139/status/1550532282288508929

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by rwmj on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:53AM (#37888990)
I don't get it. kprofiles sounds like it provides a service. It might not be a great one or one I'm interested in, but collating all that information about K-Pop bands and publishing one or two articles a day is non-trivial.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by yterdy on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:04AM (#37889053)
>ran by non-native English speakers that gets hacked every few months with a redirect to porn or russian sites.

I imagine that this would be a problem.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:42AM (#37890672)
https://twitter.com/KProfiles_com/with_replies

What's amusing is they think it's "rival websites" hacking them with redirects to russian purse sites

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:00AM (#37889024)
I would argue that the word trivial is exactly what would describe their entire operation.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by aktenlage on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:58AM (#37889019)
Is there a way to read it without an ex-twitter account? I just see the first tweet
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by Scandiravian on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:03AM (#37889048)
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by lovemenot on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:03AM (#37889049)
I see your point and mostly sympathise. It's relevant to the topic and provides a personal perspective.

>> ran by non-native English speakers

I feel this clause doesn't help promote your grievance. A big promise of the Web was that it was World-Wide. If a site in say Thailand could exceed say a USA site's quality, all the better. I get that your specific competitors didn't excel - except in ranking. But, in principle, good wishes to global competition.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by l33t7332273 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @09:54AM (#37889741)
> If a site in say Thailand could exceed say a USA site's quality

For many users, a foundational element of the quality of a website is that is in English; it’s all they speak.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by zztop44 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:13AM (#37889892)
The site is in English. So it’s just like are you going to judge them for not being native speakers of English and perhaps sometimes making mistakes?
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by allarm on Monday October 16, 2023 @02:39AM (#37896516)
How’s that a non-native speakers problem?
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:47AM (#37890221)
Listen I watched the movie Hackers as a kid and want to throw my fist up and say yeah too but in reality that's not how it works. These sites in 'Thailand' are very seldom competing on quality in my experience.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by gardenhedge on Sunday October 15, 2023 @09:52AM (#37889722)
So kprofiles provides a service - providing information to those looking for it - be it fans or journalists. I don't get why it shouldn't be ranked high since it's been a valuable resource since 2016?
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @12:05PM (#37890902)
It's not a question of "ranked high" - it's that they're far and away #1 in our niche when they are quite obviously just another garbage SEO website.

If you can't understand that I'm afraid I don't see a point in continuing.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by narag on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:58PM (#37892367)
Can't you do the same they do? Obviously not about the contents, I believe you when you say yours is so much better, but about the SEO. Isn't it possible to imitate their tactics to a certain extent, without getting equally trashy?
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:56PM (#37892867)
I mean, yeah we try to score the free SEO wins already (see page titles: UPDATED 2023) but at this point we make enough to pay our small staff and I'm fine working for free on it. I think SEO and quality are basically inversely correlated and if you try to chase SEO you will only create dogshit and have to get lucky with stupid journalists.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by narag on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:46PM (#37893257)
That's really unfortunate. Best of luck!
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by gardenhedge on Sunday October 15, 2023 @04:35PM (#37893175)
I visited the site. It has pages of facts about bands and artists.. you might even call them profiles...

It also has a forum with a community. I really this as you being frustrated by the competition rather than them doing something nefarious.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:11PM (#37893418)
Who said anything about nefarious? Struggling with reading comprehension? It's about quality.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by gardenhedge on Monday October 16, 2023 @04:50PM (#37906415)
Every reply you make makes you look worse. No one cares (i.e. google, kprofiles, journalists, kpop fans) about what you think is "quality" or not.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by hombre_fatal on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:04AM (#37889817)
Here's how that Twitter link describes you and your competitors vs. Kprofiles:

> A few other people have noticed the quiet success of Kprofiles and have already attempted to copy them.

> Some have better content, site structure, and formatting than Kprofiles.

> But they just compete with Kprofile's massive backlink profile.

So did Kprofiles (a somewhat purple website) come before you (Kpopping) or are you talking about competing for second place with Hallyu Idol (a very purple website)?

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by p3rls on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:37AM (#37890120)
I was referring to the former. The waybackmachine confirms they launched around the summer of 2017

https://web.archive.org/web/20170530121529/http://www.kprofi...

We were running a beta for that period and launched publicly in July of 2017

https://web.archive.org/web/20170722070519/https://kpopping....

Personally I think hallyuidol is even worse but that's another matter.

Right now I have YouTube's API team giving me an audit that is compounding my already overextension on our development. They're telling me I can't do rankings or aggregate data. It's a giant mess and I have another fulltime job so it's not getting the attention it deserves -- still it's miles ahead of its competitors and I don't see how that's even debatable.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by NL807 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @07:44AM (#37888953)
I'm rather shocked how the quality of their search results has tanked over the years. I used to be able to find decent academic content, or programming related topics quite consistently 5 years ago. Now I'm getting only a few vague results either from stackoverflow, math stackexchange, reddit, or apple, and the rest is just utter garbage. Yandex, of all search engines provide consistently better results. Fortunately, Google Scholar did not suffer this fate yet, but I'm dreading the day when it will.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by bad_username on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:39AM (#37889258)
The Russian search engine pops up in the comments whenever Google search quality is discussed here. I am sure this is non-organic astroturfing.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by l33t7332273 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @09:56AM (#37889758)
Comrade, I have personally tried that search engine and found it similar in quality to Bing with just a hint of added excitement from the fear in the back of my mind.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by srackey on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:11AM (#37889872)
Nah he’s right. Yandex is pretty good. Easily on par with Google/Bing. I suspect just no one uses it in America so the results aren’t SEO’d to death.

I’d bet Baidu is decent too but that one really isn’t set up to interface with the Western internet.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by ThrowAwayChris on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:42PM (#37892213)
Baidu is fully integrated into the Party's censorship apparatus and delivers absolutely nothing of use for many categories of query. Couldn't even search for wrist watches for a while.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dartos on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:56AM (#37890286)
I like kagi
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by knaik94 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:28AM (#37890539)
Yandex is a genuinely good alternative. For text search, it isn't overly censored in relation to DMCA risks. Appending terms like 'torrent' actually work. For exact text searching, I found Yandex results to be better.

And Yandex is leagues ahead of Google and Bing in terms of reverse image search.

Google is generally better if you have a more abstract or conceptual query, or if you're not sure what the best term would be.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by sneed_chucker on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:29AM (#37890547)
I would not be surprised if there is some astroturfing going on.

But I've personally found that Yandex to give better search results than Google on some topics. But I also don't trust the company and assume that everything they make has FSB backdoors in it.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by asadotzler on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:58PM (#37892371)
I met the Yandex CEO and CTO in Moscow back in June of 2006 at their headquarters, scouting them out as a Firefox search partner. They had real tech and capable people back then and over the years they got better and better. We eventually signed them as our default in Russia where their native language advantage was a clear win over Google. I still use them occasionally today and find their search to be a solid product.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by NL807 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:39PM (#37894749)
Do your own comparison and see it for yourself. It has nothing to do with astroturfing. Google has become objectively bad at search. The results speak for itself.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by allarm on Monday October 16, 2023 @02:43AM (#37896535)
Are you saying it’s astroturfing because it’s a Russian engine? Nice.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by Akronymus on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:31AM (#37890072)
yandex and saucenao are my go-to search engines for reverse image searching. Can't tell the last time I used google for that.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by RGBCube on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:30PM (#37892112)
I also personally experienced this today as well. I was trying to find the codename for my friends phone on his phone, which has Google as the default browser. I tried 3 different search queries, which gave me nothing but utter garbage. Then I searched it on my phone, which has Yandex as its default browser.

Boom, it just gave me it, straight at the top, on the quick answer dialog. Same for Kagi, which is a paid but good search engine.

Google is ruined, was so much better 6 years ago.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by anovikov on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:11AM (#37889098)
Sadly, for smaller languages, usually pay of copywriters is also much smaller than English, so they aren't protected from it at all.

How bad are things? Bad indeed. I even buy my airline tickets from a traditional brick-and-mortar agent with whom i built a relationship over years and who finds good deals for me and knows the pitfalls better than the internet could suggest.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by CM30 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:12AM (#37889102)
> Professional YouTubers are also making content for rankings above all, but the fact that it's their own face/voice keeps some of the rot at bay.

YouTube's stuck in its own algorithm hellhole. Mostly due to their insistence that creators have to post on a regular basis, creative block or lack of things to cover be damned. So if your niche has nothing to talk about right now, well you'll need to find something, anything to cover to stay relevant. And if your fans/viewers want something that you don't care about anymore, well that sucks even more. Changing to a topic you do care about will probably tank everything for weeks, potentially longer.

It's like a video creating version of a factory production line for those trying to become popular/famous there.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by likeabbas on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:19AM (#37889143)
Hmm, Jesse Michels posts videos so infrequently (he just did the first one in a year) and he still got 2 million views instantly..
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dartos on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:58AM (#37890291)
I think the algorithm is geared now towards higher production value videos that encourage viewers to click on other videos

That’s why there are so many collabs now

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dalbasal on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:27AM (#37890530)
Maybe at the margin. Broadly though, the way to do YouTube professionally is high frequency.

Most channels these days attract pretty consistent views per vid. The most straightforward way to increase revenue is frequency.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by narag on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:07PM (#37892453)
If the experts that I've listened to are right, the thing that YouTube promotes is keeping the user hooked for the longest time possible.

That doesn't mean that you, the youtuber, must create a lot of videos or very long videos or very frequently, but you must create a video that induces the person watching it to watch more videos, yours or others'.

There are different kinds of videos that fits that purpose: a series of videos for a course of some subject, a video that points to another video of the same subject, a video that complements other video that the user might have watched before...

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by jdub on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:39AM (#37889251)
Vint Cerf
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by dalbasal on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:35AM (#37890600)
Apologies. I did know that at some point.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by nsagent on Sunday October 15, 2023 @08:50AM (#37889320)
Ironically, the title of the article is literal clickbait. The first four paragraphs (out of 21) of the article are related to the title. The majority of the article (11 paragraphs) are dedicated to AI safety.

I avoid companies like Google as much as possible, but is it really their fault that so many people fall for clickbait? If that's what a majority of people click on, shouldn't users share the blame?

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by lacrimacida on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:29AM (#37890049)
Clickbait is basically a shortcut to traffic and it is actually incentivised by design.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by sgc on Sunday October 15, 2023 @10:41AM (#37890171)
How can you know the link won't correspond to the title and snippet? Should we just avoid all interesting-looking content because we might have been duped? The only way to avoid clickbait working is if those who have actually seen the entire page can indicate it is not worth viewing - which brings us right back to search engine placement algorithms and curation.
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by nsagent on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:11AM (#37890394)
Yes, but the algorithm is optimizing for clicks, not curation. Curation is a much more costly process requiring humans in the loop, which often leads to cries of censorship (e.g. my otherwise popular article is being unfairly down-weighted). Clicks are much easier to track and provide a lot of signal.

I'm not saying that Google can't do better. Clearly they have mismatched incentives with their users due to advertising. Moving organic search placements below the fold to increase ad revenue is a major issue, but isn't akin to prioritizing clickbait.

Instead what I'm saying is that due to Google's dominant market position they are under higher scrutiny if they start labeling certain media outlets as frequently generating clickbait and down-weighting them, where smaller search engines like Kagi can get away with that without being labeled a manipulator.

That said, if Google did allow block lists like Kagi, that could go a long way, but likely would still lead to complaints about bias.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by paradox460 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @02:15PM (#37892002)
Google had blocklists a decade ago. They got rid of them.

You can use the uBlocklist browser extension to add em back, but its not as seamless

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by 6510 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @12:06PM (#37890908)
It's a choice, A) you make something yourself or B) you have the user create the product. There is probably more money in the later but if you look at it objectively from perspective A it will look like an ever declining turd.

We've had the same plot with TV. It was definitely possible to fill countless channels with the many lectures given all over the world. Countless people who though much effort managed to learn and discover useful and interesting things. You would need complimentary programming to allow the viewer to access or understand the different fields - which is entirely doable.

It's not different from watching a lengthy series of seasons and episodes with a modestly complex plot.

Instant gratification [by definition] has very little to offer in the long run.

If you get sucked deep enough into some.. well... useful topic (like most here know enough about programming) development in that area is going to be more interesting than Ow my balls!

Wheel of fortune isn't going to create any kind of scientific/economic/social revolution.

With any product you work on you can ask yourself what kind of people it creates. Who is the audience, what will I make them into?

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by TacticalCoder on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:52AM (#37890777)
> I often resort to searches in a smaller language, where economic incentives are 100X smaller than English.

I wonder for how long that's going to work: the cost of translating with LLM are now basically $0 and LLMs are exceptionally good at doing that. So basically: have LLMs generate complete, total and utter crap in english. Then have LLMs decline this crap in all the world's languages.

Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by johnalbertearle on Sunday October 15, 2023 @06:38PM (#37894043)
Yandex
Re:Google has sent internet into 'spiral of decline', claims... by thiht on Monday October 16, 2023 @02:39AM (#37896519)
Non ironically, you might wanna try Tiktok for searches where you want an actual human point of view.

My searches are now split evenly between TikTok, Google with site:reddit.com, ChatGPT and Google with no filter as a last resort. And I really want to give Kagi another try in the coming weeks.