News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by sidewndr46 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @03:18PM (#37836254)
This is incorrect. Federal law prohibits the removal of emissions devices on a vehicle, even if not used on public roads.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by TulliusCicero on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @03:31PM (#37836420)
Which makes sense. It's not like pollution stays confined within the track area.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by oceanplexian on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @03:47PM (#37836583)
Pollution only applies to the little people.

If you’re a wealthy politician with a private jet you can pollute as much as 10,000 modified diesel trucks and the EPA might even give you an award or something.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @04:59PM (#37837385)
> pollute as much as 10,000 modified diesel trucks

This is insanely hyperbolic.

A Cessna Citation I carries 564 gallons of fuel, with which it can travel ~1,500 miles - 2.7mpg.

A Ford F-250 carries 48 gallons of fuel, with which it can travel ~700 miles - 14mpg.

It's not even 10x.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by profile53 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:14PM (#37837600)
Yes but an F250 does not use leaded gas like many planes do, has much more complete and efficient combustion, and likely produces far less particulate emissions.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:20PM (#37837687)
Private jets don't use leaded gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

No amount of cherry picking is gonna get you to the 10,000x number upthread.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by Blackcatmaxy on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:32PM (#37837868)
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by vdqtp3 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:45PM (#37838020)
It's funny watching you all use different words and think they mean the same thing. Turbine powered aircraft, whether jet, fan or prop (a Citation is a turbofan powered aircraft) use Jet-A which is basically diesel (OK, OK, it's kerosene but they aren't that different). Piston planes (of which there are plenty) mostly use 100LL - high octane, leaded gasoline. Now that we're done with the pedantry, please continue with your argument.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:59PM (#37838188)
Yes, if you change entire words in my post you can make it say anything you like.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by Blackcatmaxy on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:01PM (#37838211)
Parent talked about private planes which you changed to talk about specifically private jets which doesn't disprove "many planes" using leaded gas.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:03PM (#37838234)
Direct quote from the parent: “ If you’re a wealthy politician with a private jet”
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by missedthecue on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:41PM (#37839192)
Jets don't
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by sam345 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:54PM (#37838131)
Just curious, where in the wikipedia article does it say Private jets don't use leaded gas ?

Just searching the article for "lead" only gets this quote: "The possibility of environmental legislation banning the use of leaded avgas (fuel in spark-ignited internal combustion engine, which usually contains tetraethyllead (TEL), a toxic substance added to prevent engine knocking), and the lack of a replacement fuel with similar performance, has left aircraft designers and pilot's organizations searching for alternative engines for use in small aircraft."

Also a reference to "Planemakers challenged to find unleaded fuel option - The Wichita Eagle" a 2009 article which has a dead link.

Curious to me why you would cite an article that says the opposite of your assertion and then repeat the definitive statement. I must be missing something.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ska on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:38PM (#37838633)
Jets don't use avgas (which is still available with lead), they use jet fuel.

The planes you are thinking of are mostly used for hobby flying or some short haul commercial flights, e.g. float planes. These have piston engines, more like your car ICE.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:00PM (#37838199)
Avgas is not used in jets. It’s for the little four seat propeller Cessnas you see tooling around.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by paulddraper on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:47PM (#37838743)
> No amount of cherry picking is gonna get you to the 10,000x number

I cherry-pick "5 miles in a F-150" vs "5000 miles in a Citation."

Cherry-pick complete.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by fallingknife on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:17PM (#37839006)
And I nit pick your cherry pick on the grounds that 1000x miles * 5.2x efficiency ratio only gets you to 5200x, far short of 10K
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by jojobas on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:41PM (#37839193)
Planes emit their crap at a higher altitude which somehow makes a greater impact or so I hear.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by paulddraper on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:21PM (#37839044)
An F-150 has better gas mileage than a F-250.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by chrisBob on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:16PM (#37837631)
Maybe in terms of CO2, but turbines also don't burn as completely as most piston engine cars. 10k is probably an exaggeration , but the pollution is much worse than the fuel economy indicates.

Similarly, my chain saw probably pollutes nearly as much as my new Honda truck even though it only gets a few gallons of gas per year.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by SAI_Peregrinus on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:12PM (#37838358)
A Gulfstream G700 carries 22,407kg of fuel (about 6,100 gallons at 800kg/m^3 ) and a max range of 14,353km (8,918.5mi), for 1.45mpg. Closer to 10x, by a bit. Using the 12,316km high-speed cruise range manages to bring it down to 1.24mpg, just under 10x worse.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:24AM (#37843133)
Said Gulfstream carries 18 people, though. Whether 5x or 10x, it isn’t 10,000x.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @03:41PM (#37849288)
Yep! My point was to take one of the biggest private jets, and show it's still vastly less than 1000x. Private jets are bad, but they're not that bad.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by babypuncher on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:24PM (#37838501)
But nobody drives their Ford F-250 10,000 miles a week. It's not about the energy efficiency of someone's mode of transport, it's about the total emissions from their transit habits. You know, the actually important metric when measuring an individual's impact on the climate.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by westmeal on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:39PM (#37838648)
They're not in a fuckin Cessna.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by vwcx on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:43PM (#37838696)
Of course they are.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by paulddraper on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:48PM (#37838750)
A Cessna Citation, not a Cessna 172.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:12AM (#37843060)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_family

> In the fifty years following the 1969 first flight, more than 7,500 [Cessna] Citations were delivered, forming the largest business jet fleet.

The math is similar for a Gulfstream, if you prefer.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by datavirtue on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:41PM (#37838672)
Leer jets, they so thirsty.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by paulddraper on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:45PM (#37838724)
Per mile

What if the little person and the wealthy person travel a different # of miles?

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by tmtvl on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:38PM (#37839170)
Then the person who travels more miles is better off doing it with a private jet rather than a truck?
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by kortilla on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:08PM (#37838931)
Good thing Cessna citations are only used to travel as far as an F-250 travels /s
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by protonbob on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:19PM (#37839021)
It’s not just about mpg. It’s about pollutants emitted.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by ceejayoz on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @09:00PM (#37839755)
Which pollutant does a private jet emit 10,000 times as much as a diesel truck?
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by rgmerk on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @08:30PM (#37839558)
And furthermore, it matters where non-CO2 pollution is released. Particulates released from a jet at cruising altitude, particularly over an ocean, are less harmful to human health than a truck belching pollution next to a kindergarten.\

I'd also add that two wrongs don't make a right, and while not strict enough there are emissions regulations for aviation.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by pixl97 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @07:45PM (#37839224)
Eh, you'll look for anything to complain about.

If you were one of those rich people you'd be complaining about the certification of airplane parts causing them to be so expensive.

And if you're in the US, it's likely you could take dozens of flights per year if you wanted to, if you fit in the techy HN pay grades.

Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by TulliusCicero on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @08:42PM (#37839640)
I think you're probably rather exaggerating the difference here, but nonetheless, sure, let's regulate or the tax the shit out of private jets too, I'm okay with that.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by queuebert on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @04:21PM (#37836952)
Dedicated race cars don't have emissions controls, though. For some reason, only race cars that drive on both roads and tracks are regulated.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by SoftTalker on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:32PM (#37837873)
Dedicated race cars are too few in number to really make a difference, so they don't worry about them.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by TulliusCicero on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @08:40PM (#37839627)
Maybe that might be worth regulating, but there aren't many actual race cars around.
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @06:22AM (#37842767)
This too is incorrect. If a vehicle is made with for street purposes, it can never have its emission devices removed. Even if it used as a dedicated race car
Re:US Sues eBay for Allowing Sale of More Than 300k Emission... by queuebert on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @10:00AM (#37844513)
As you probably know, I was referring to custom built race cars, such as Indy or Nascar. But yes there is a very tiny set of cars that were once street cars that have been modified and now only race and never, ever, even for a minute, drive on the roads.