News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by jsight on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @09:54AM (#37832138)
But that's exactly the problem, it shouldn't require a enterprise grade tool just to host a simple website on the internet. We've lost something due to our inability to stop attacks at the source and heavy overreliance on massive cloud providers to do it for us.

2FA and password managers didn't make us heavily reliant on massive companies.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by spacephysics on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:17AM (#37832440)
A similar analogy can be made with the likes of westward expansion in the continental US.

Back then, you got a piece of land, and really could do what you wanted with it. Build a business, farm, etc. some government taxes but nothing crazy. But you had to deal with criminals, lack of access to medical care, and lack of education.

Now to do the same, you have a slew of building codes, regulations, zoning laws, and are basically forced to have municipal services. Higher Taxes to pay the roads, police force, fire fighters, education services etc.

However, home owners can still just have an egg or vegetable stand at the end of their driveway. It won’t be the same as having a storefront in town, but it’s still doable without the overhead.

Similarly, as the internet matures, we’re going to see more and more overhead to sustain a “basic” business.

But you can still have a personal blog ran in your closet, for lower-level traffic.

The analogy isn’t perfect, but unfortunately as threat-actor’s budgets increase, so too do their quality/sophistication of their attacks. If it was cheap to defend against some of the more costly attacks, they would find a different vector.

The answer, to me, is some tangential technology that is some mix of federated or decentralization. Not in a crypto bro sense, but just some tech whose fundamental design solves the inherit problem with how our web is built today.

Then threat actors will find another way, rinse and repeat…

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by dmd on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:24AM (#37832513)
> home owners can still just have an egg or vegetable stand at the end of their driveway

No you can't. That is illegal without a "cottage food" license, training, and labeling in most of the US.

https://www.pickyourown.org/CottageFoodLawsByState.htm

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by glompers on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:35AM (#37832655)
Okay but does that mean anything regarding the parent commentor's analogy or the article?
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by bombcar on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:26AM (#37832542)
Child-run lemonade stands are technically illegal in most states (some have actually carved out exemptions for them because of overzealous policing).

Garage sales often have a specific carve out, also, and limitations on numbers of time per year, etc.

Most areas nobody cares at all until it becomes a nuisance somehow.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by adrianN on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:38AM (#37832690)
Selectively enforced laws are the worst kind of law.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by bombcar on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:53AM (#37832877)
I've always thought it would be interesting to allow as a defense against a violation of a law to prove that the law is regularly violated without consequence.

Because selectively enforced laws are just another way of saying you have a king at some level, the person who decides to enforce or not.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by zaroth on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:09AM (#37833058)
Selective prosecution is a defense under the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution.

However, the Supreme Court has left the prescribed remedy intentionally vague since 1996, which in turn makes the claims themselves less likely to be raised, and less likely to succeed.

https://wlr.law.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1263/2022/...

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by jrockway on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:08AM (#37833039)
You have some control over this as an ordinary citizen. Next time you're on a jury for a lemonade stand violation, nullify.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by not2b on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:32AM (#37833425)
Has a lemonade stand violation ever resulted in a jury trial in the US? I'm skeptical. In places that enforce those rules, usually what happens is that the cops tell the parent it isn't allowed, the kid shuts it down and there's no fine.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by lazide on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @02:03PM (#37835364)
Or it turns into a giant PR disaster for the cops.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by acheron on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @02:44PM (#37835854)
Don't tell that to the GDPR defenders.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by adrianN on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:44AM (#37841674)
I am a gdpr defender. I would like stricter enforcement.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by meowface on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @09:58AM (#37832183)
Yes, but if these cloud providers didn't exist eventually there'd be botnets that no site could protect against, rather than the status quo of at least some sites being able to resist them. The idea that the existence of cloud providers that can soak up a lot of traffic is making things worse by causing botnets to get more powerful just seems silly.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by 89vision on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:11AM (#37832352)
20 years ago if a blog or website ended up on slashdot/digg/whatever there was a good chance it was going down. Scalable websites are a commodity today
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:23AM (#37833279)
That goes both ways. What was the price then to get a botnet with 10k nodes making 1k requests / second? What is the price today?
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by ExoticPearTree on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @03:58PM (#37836706)
For the website or for the use of the botnet?
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @04:58AM (#37842312)
For the use of the botnet...
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by 89vision on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @11:23AM (#37845661)
sure, It's no doubt an arms race. The prevalance of websites going down due to scaling issues feels like order of magnitude less than it was 20 years ago though. Purely anecdotal with no real data to back that up.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @12:23PM (#37846510)
Because the majority of sites run on/behind:

- AWS

- Cloudflare

- Azure

- GCP

- Great Firewall of China

Maybe there was some truth about "the world market for maybe five computers", after all...

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by 89vision on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:01PM (#37859029)
Sure, I fail to see how that invalidates my point
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:37PM (#37863483)
What I am saying is that we are getting "scalable websites" today individually, but it has cost us overall resiliency because most of us all are hiding behind the big providers. I am not so sure if this is a good trade-off.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by gchamonlive on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @09:59AM (#37832200)
> 2FA and password managers didn't make us heavily reliant on massive companies.

Retool: https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/09/how-google-authenti...

Lastpass: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34516275

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:11AM (#37832356)
If Google Authenticator goes away, people will still be able to use 2FA (I for one use Aegis, it's available on F-droid and does everything I need, including encrypted backups)

If Lastpass goes away, people will still be able to use keepass or any of the large number of open source password managers, some of them even with browser integrations.

If I have a website that is frequently attacked by botnets and Cloudflare goes away, what can I use to replace it?

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by gchamonlive on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:20AM (#37832468)
I am sorry, but if your password manager goes away and you have no disaster recovery scenario planned you might not be able to just move to a competitor:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652650

My response was to illustrate how insidious big companies are.

Of course nothing compares to the backbone of the web going down. If AWS North Virginia suffers widespread downtime to all its availability zones, much of the web will just go dark, no question about it.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by bee_rider on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:13AM (#37832386)
2FA, I’m not sure.

But Lastpass doesn’t represent the whole of password managers. Storing your passwords in an online service is a really silly thing to do (for passwords that matter at least). Use something local like keepass.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by gchamonlive on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:32AM (#37832611)
Hope you plan ahead for a house fire with a 3-2-1 approach for backups. Maintaining an always on off-site storage is expensive unless you resort to cloud solutions like OneDrive or Dropbox, but then you go back to the problem of having your passwords on the cloud, even if encrypted.

Not using cloud is just very expensive and time consuming for the average user.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by adrianN on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:40AM (#37832710)
Passwords are small enough that you can make physical backups easily.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by gchamonlive on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:54AM (#37832886)
Honest question, because it is interesting and might change how I approach backing up my passwords. How would you go about maintaing that physical copy updated?

What I think would make this approach hard is that you would have to ponder if a newly created account is important at creation time in order to know if you should update the off-site, physical copy of your most important passwords (I say this because if you want to backup everything and avoid the cloud entirely it is just not viable, having to update this physical backup for each new account. I am currently at over 400 logins in my pw manager, 2 years ago it was half as much).

I think having your passwords encrypted with a high enough entropy master password and a quantum-resistant encryption algorithm, and having an off-site, physical backup of your cloud account credentials is enough for anyone not publicly exposed, like a politician or someone extremely wealthy, even though I would be skeptical these people go through such lengths to protect their online accounts.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by rglullis on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:22AM (#37833233)
The lesson is not to "avoid" the cloud, but to not be "dependent" on it. Doubly so if the service provided is one that keeps you locked in and can not be ported over.

So yes, I feel comfortable with my strategy of having backups on bluray disks + S3. If AWS goes down or decides to jack up their prices to something unacceptable, I will take the physical copies and move then to the dozen others S3-compatible alternatives. I am not dependent on AWS.

But I am not interested in using Google Authenticator or Lastpass because that would mean that I am at their mercy.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by lazide on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @02:07PM (#37835405)
LastPass is an issue - but even LastPass would let you export/print the passwords. So no hard dependency there*. Google Authenticator recently did something similar with QR codes.

* though OTP seeds don’t print, and you can’t export/print attachments. I don’t recommend LastPass for these and many other reasons.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by adrianN on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @11:47AM (#37833654)
With two usb sticks it’s not that much work to take one witha fresh backup to my mom when I visit and take the other one back and update that backup. At worst I lose one or two logins.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by dylan604 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @10:27AM (#37832556)
you don't need enterprise grade tools just to host a simple website. however, if your simple site ever gains enough attraction to come under an attack, especially like this, you'll never survive. you can either just accept that your service will not survive the attack and just shut it down until the attackers realize mission accomplished and stops. you can then hope they don't notice when you bring it back. no simple site will be able to afford what's required to stay up from these attacks.

i'm not saying i like having to put the majority behind the services of 2 or 3 companies, but if you ever get shut down from some DDOS, you'll understand why people think they need to.

Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by lazide on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @02:04PM (#37835374)
It won’t survive - until a day or so later you’ve migrated to one of the large providers who provide the protection.
Re:Google mitigated the largest DDoS attack to date, peaking... by lazide on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @02:02PM (#37835342)
It doesn’t take enterprise grade tools to host a website.

It does take enterprise grade tools to defend against the largest DDoS ever attempted.

Those are not the same thing. And those DDoS’s often are aimed at things besides a HTTPS endpoint.