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Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by Legend2440 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:33AM (#37761176)
Why shouldn't we use AI for cover letters? We both know they're nonsense anyway, you don't want to read them and I don't want to write them.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by devoutsalsa on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:55AM (#37761326)
Because it’s better to not submit a cover letter than to submit something filled with generic AI generated garbage that doesn’t represent the real you.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by monsieurbanana on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:02AM (#37761370)
Tell that to the companies that require them. The disconnect...
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by devoutsalsa on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:07AM (#37761415)
It’s not that hard to write a couple of sentences of original thought to show minimal interest.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by monsieurbanana on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @03:37AM (#37762054)
You might get disqualified by some automatic process that filters on length. Nobody will most likely read those couple of sentences anyway. And ironically, if they do, they might think you're lazy for writing only 2 and would rather go with the guy that has a longer cover not AI-generated.

That is actually AI generated, because people thinking they can easily differentiate between them probably also think publicity has zero effects on them.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ckolkey on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @03:41AM (#37762078)
It's not unheard of to be applying to 50+ companies in the hopes of hearing back from 5. It's not a couple sentences - if you wrote three sentences per letter, thats 150 sentences.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by pc2slow4webpack on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:11PM (#37772522)
As someone graduating at the end of this year, this is quite the understatement in my experience.

The constant, 0-feedback autorejections make this a demoralizing experience.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:55AM (#37761327)
Personally, as an employer, I completely disagree. I’d prefer to be written to as a human. A short email (as in, a paragraph or two) that an applicant writes themselves explaining why they’re a good fit speaks volumes.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by baq on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:03AM (#37761386)
If you’re an employer (and any other employers reading this) you could say somewhere in the application process that you actually read the letters. I think most people assume nobody ever opens them.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @09:32AM (#37764888)
If that becomes something that's expected, in order to get people to continue to send in cover letters, it will be abused. Everyone will say they read the letters—but no more companies will read them than do now.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by iamcreasy on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:45AM (#37779260)
Can you share more on how to write a good two paragraph cover letters? I try to write good cover letter but at the end of the day sentences feel generic and the job description never usually contains enough meat to bite onto. How can I convince an employer that I am actually interested to have a conversation with them about the job?
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by tempestn on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:55AM (#37761330)
Know your audience. As the owner of a company with single digit employees, I put a fair amount of stock in a good cover letter. IE one that shows someone understands what they're applying to and why they might be a good fit. And that they're interested enough in this specific position to make a small effort beyond firing off a resume. I don't mind people submitting bad AI-written cover letters though. It's a clear signal that I can safely ignore the application.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @09:31AM (#37764875)
How the hell are job applicants supposed to "know our audience"? The whole point of the process is that neither of us knows anything about the other.

And no; we can't rely on something like "it's a small company" (there are small companies where everyone's too busy to read cover letters, or doesn't care about them), or "they say they genuinely care about cover letters" (that's about as reliable as the list of qualifications, and we all know how idiotic those can often be).

We would all be better off if we could relegate that "getting to know you" part of the hiring process to the interview. It's a relic of a time when applying for a dozen or so jobs would be likely to get you hired, so you could justify putting in a solid hour or so of effort crafting an individualized cover letter for each one.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by tempestn on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:18PM (#37767370)
It shouldn't take an hour to write a decent cover letter, and there are many ways you can learn about the company you're applying to. Starting with the job posting, but LinkedIn and their "about us" page would be a couple more low effort ways. When someone is able to do these things and write a decent introductory letter it's a strong sign that they will also be able to deal well with challenges that come up in the course of work. Plus, as is its purpose, it gives you a chance to describe why you're a good choice for this specific role, and to address any apparent deficiencies in your skills or experience.

That isn't to say that the lack of a cover letter is disqualifying (though a bad one might be), but a good one can definitely set you apart.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by nasalgoat on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @03:18PM (#37770211)
Sorry, when you're applying to a dozen jobs a day, it's hard to put that personal spin into it.

I know you think you're a special snowflake that's different from every other company out there, but looking for a job is a grind. A tough one. Why make people dance and sing even more?

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by JohnFen on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @04:11PM (#37771004)
> Sorry, when you're applying to a dozen jobs a day, it's hard to put that personal spin into it.

True, it's a lot of work. But plenty of people (myself included) manage it.

I'm not going to say that anyone is wrong for not writing cover letters, of course. But there are lots of people making hiring decisions that put a lot of stock in good ones, so it makes logical sense to provide one.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:08PM (#37772480)
"I did it, so everyone should have to do it" is a mindset that denies the possibility of progress to something better.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by JohnFen on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:13AM (#37779642)
The mischaracterizes what I'm saying. I'm not saying everyone has to do it. Nobody has to do it -- it's your choice. What I'm saying is that doing it can give you an advantage.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by carlosjobim on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @09:43PM (#37774007)
> True, it's a lot of work. But plenty of people (myself included) manage it.

Generally what the person recruiting ate for lunch and the state of their bowel has ten times the influence on the success of your application than any amount of time you spend writing a cover letter. It's all random, and you can't know beforehand if your application will arrive at a serious recruiter or not.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by hotpotamus on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @04:29PM (#37771270)
You know, I'm more on the side of the worker than capital a lot of the time and I despise much of modern hiring processes, but a cover letter doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I would think you could template it significantly and still avoid making it too boilerplate.

Like start with some bio - as a young child, I took everything apart to see how it worked (much to my parents' chagrin). From that I learned to see the beauty of a mechanical watch ticking away, and I see a similar beauty in a RabbitMQ server ticking away messages, directing them where to go and seeing the inside of the system at work - it's been a lifelong interest of mine.

That part can pretty much stay the same. Then write a paragraph or two about the job. You might not know much but try and find a connection. Like if it's a bank, talk about how you'd like to know more about how money moves over the modern global infrastructure, or if it's some service you've used, talk about how it was helpful. If it's hard to find a connection, then you can say I've got some relevant skills, but I don't know much about your industry and I'd like to learn more.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:21PM (#37772599)
OK, now do that a dozen times a day, five days a week.

For weeks.

Months.

Can you still bring yourself to do it at all, let alone find something meaningful to say about each one, after all that?

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:15AM (#37778183)
Someone applying to jobs dozens of times per day for months (so over a thousand applications), without bothering to research where the job is, much less write a cover letter, strikes me as working harder, not smarter.

If they were to apply to fewer jobs, less frequently, and more personally, putting more effort into each, they might not need to be searching for months, or making so many applications where it's clear to the company that they don't care whether they get that job or 1 of hundreds of others.

Maybe think of it like phishing vs. spearphishing. Or sending "hi" as an opening line on a dating app, vs. tailoring it to the person. The latter gets a better response rate per interaction.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:39AM (#37778463)
Ah, yes; I'm sure you're much smarter than all the people who have struggled to find jobs over the last few years. Surely, their problem is their own incompetence, and not the incredibly hostile labor environment that decades of Gordon Gekko-style management have wrought, treating human beings as cost centers to be minimized, rather than as the reason we do any of the work in the first place.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:41PM (#37781565)
It's simply a different strategy. If you're getting better results working harder on a scattershot, impersonal approach that broadcasts to the employer that you aren't particularly interested in them, much less suited for each other, more power to you. I got better results the other way myself.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by JohnFen on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @04:10PM (#37770979)
> How the hell are job applicants supposed to "know our audience"?

You don't research a company before you apply for a position with them?

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by danaris on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:17PM (#37772573)
a) In most cases? Hell no. I read the basics of what the company is/does, and decide from that if they look worth applying to. I'm not looking for a spouse, I'm looking for a paycheck. Now, if I actually hear back from the company, then I'll do research to get a more in-depth feel for the company's culture and history.

b) How on earth do you expect me to be able to "research a company" to be able to tell whether they're genuinely going to read a cover letter and care what it says? The only way I can think to find that out is to be able to talk to people who've recently been hired there, and fuck cold-emailing random people at a company you're trying to apply to; I guarantee some significant percentage of companies would find that super creepy and shitcan your résumé out of hand.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by JohnFen on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:15AM (#37779663)
> How on earth do you expect me to be able to "research a company" to be able to tell whether they're genuinely going to read a cover letter and care what it says?

I don't. That's not what I was talking about when researching a company. You can't (usually) know if a cover letter will be read or valued. But it might be, so it seems worth doing anyway just to gain that possible edge.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by quickthrower2 on Friday October 06, 2023 @03:36AM (#37788119)
Most people probably do the intelligent thing based on probability, outcome and game theory. Sometimes you want to do a lot of legwork to apply. For example a web dev job paying $500k because AI goldrush dollarz (cough anthropic) and othertimes you need a job to tide you over and there is yet another business focusses SaaS hiring devs with cliche perks and so yeah I mean at least be polite and use GPT4.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by exodust on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:09AM (#37761430)
Remind me why cover letters are nonsense? It's an opportunity to introduce yourself in plain English, drawing attention to specific career highlights, interests and relevant details for the role you're applying.

Are we headed for: why meet anyone face to face when you could send an AI avatar loaded with "professional courtesy small talk"?

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ckolkey on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @03:42AM (#37762085)
Because employers (normally) don't read them.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by vlod on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:42PM (#37772774)
Pretty much 90%+ (for me and I have a shit tonne of experience) don't respond to any job posting. After a while it's quite hard not to get jaded about how the whole process is a compete waste of time.

I believe I see a lot of that in the comments here. People are frustrated, because even when there's a great skills match, that they don't get a rejected letter, or if they do it's a auto generated one. They are trying to short cut the process using AI or not posting at all.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by Ekaros on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:26AM (#37775175)
I an "engineer"... All that is in single or two page document already. That experienced person could scan in a couple minutes if that. And I provided that exact document.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by gorbachev on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:38AM (#37761617)
There was a blog article posted on HN about this just last week.

It's because generative AI writes generic "say-nothing" letters. They're impersonal, don't say anything substantive about the candidate's skill, and read like the uncanny valley version of written text.

As the OP said, they're just a waste of time.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by Jensson on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @04:05AM (#37762231)
All of those things apply to regular cover letters. Cover letters, public apologies etc looked AI generated before AI generation was a thing.
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ImPostingOnHN on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @10:33PM (#37774272)
maybe the cover letters you've encountered suck? try:

"I was reading up on your company, and came across a podcast interview with your CEO/your CTO/the hiring manager. She was talking about the company culture/goals/story/challenges and said something I really identified with: X. This spoke to me because my own track-record/philosophy/goals include X. For example..."

At least, I try to use it to show I've done some pre-work to ensure a good fit

Of course, if a person is applying to hundreds of positions, they likely haven't done that pre-work, so that person would have nothing to say

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by Ekaros on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:24AM (#37775165)
If company expects this level of commitment and research from candidate. Why not offer exactly same level to them. Just set an appointment automatically and then you can tell how the company is greatest thing that have ever existed and ask candidate to tell why they love to join it so much...
Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:29AM (#37775185)
I would indeed expect them to ensure a good fit in response to my doing so. And my doing research actually saves them time doing so, because I included similar information about me. For someone who didn't, why would the company offer it in response?

If someone isn't that interested in that specific job, and would take just any job, they shouldn't do it, but someone who wants that specific job more, will

That's one risk they take by adopting the scattershot, "impersonally apply to so many jobs simultaneously that you need AI to automate it" approach. Another one is getting a job somewhere that ends up being a bad fit.

Re:Tell HN: Please stop sending AI-generated job application... by FireBeyond on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @09:20PM (#37839876)
> I would indeed expect them to ensure a good fit in response to my doing so. And my doing research actually saves them time doing so, because I included similar information about me. For someone who didn't, why would the company offer it in response?

Hah. I have done exactly this. Personalized story, breaking down my interest and background (not just rehashing my resume), putting something coherent together.

And, bluntly? I'm an excellent writer. While I may not be cranking out Booker or Hugo award winners, I know how to craft something.

Ninety per cent of the time? Crickets. It's profoundly demoralizing.