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Re:VLSI Physical Design by amelius on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:15PM (#37677865)
I hope the developers of KiCad are taking note. It would be amazing to have these placement/routing capabilities at the PCB level also.
Re:VLSI Physical Design by xw3099 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:36PM (#37678172)
The barrier to automatic placement and route at the PCB level is not the algorithms. It the time it takes the user to create the routing constraints on the nets. For PCBs with less than, say, 100 nets. It's probably not worth it. You could wire it up manually faster than you could write and debug a constraints file.

That why for commercial PCB packages with support designs with 1000s of nets, such as Cadence's Allegro, one does see support for automatic routing of PCBs. And it's quite good.

Re:VLSI Physical Design by amelius on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:39PM (#37678223)
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Would KiCad not benefit from these algorithms? What if the PCB has a lot of wide buses, etc? Why would someone using Allegro have different requirements than someone using KiCad?

Just trying to understand.

Re:VLSI Physical Design by xw3099 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:50PM (#37678390)
It could definitely benefit. And if KiCAD wants to support larger systems then one might even argue they're required, eventually.

What I mean is not all nets are created equal. Is this an edge sensitive gpio or a level sensistive? Is this a net with a cap a current that's being integrated or edge rate control on a clock driver? A person knows because they can read the datasheets. The way for the algorithm to know is routing constraints, and their fairly tedious to write correctly which means for there to be good ROI on the time spent writing them, the algorithm needs to do a lot of work for you.

Re:VLSI Physical Design by amelius on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:02PM (#37678608)
Ok, good point. Perhaps the role of each pad can be annotated in the symbol libraries. Or perhaps we can use LLM technology to read the datasheets and figure out the role of each net ;)
Re:VLSI Physical Design by dragontamer on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:15PM (#37680632)
I'm looking into maybe doing a BGA / MPU through KiCAD soon. Not that I'm confident in my abilities at all, but it'd be a challenge that I'd like to succeed in.

Yeah, you've listed off ~100 nets vs 1000s+ nets. But...

Many MPUs are BGA200 to BGA400 in size, and seemingly designed for 4-layer to 6-layer boards (available from OSHPark). Which means I expect around... maybe 200 nets or so in practice (a lot of the pins are either power-or-ground. But many other pins would be in fact connected to "something" and be their own net). More than your first number, less than your second number.

In your opinion, is that still within the feasibility of a hobbyist laying things out by hand? A lot of SiP MPUs have "internal DDR2" in sufficient quantities to boot Linux, although I'm also thinking about routing my own RAM for maximum flexibility.

Re:VLSI Physical Design by xw3099 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:46PM (#37683142)
It’s definitely doable in one off quantities. And in fact people do it. Probably the most annoying thing would be dealing with length matching but honestly modern interfaces are much more tolerant than the specs imply. Power delivery could also be a sore point. So again, if you just looking to get a prototype working, it’s workable. But in volume. I wouldn’t go this route. This presentation lists some important things that are lacking in KiCAD when you really need to know the answer. https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/event/advanced_sim/...
Re:VLSI Physical Design by bsder on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:32PM (#37680028)
The developers of KiCad are fully aware of these kinds of algorithms.

There is a huge difference between autorouting in VLSI and autorouting in PCBs. There are particular differences:

1) The number of available layers

VLSI autorouting pretty much sucked until you had 5+ layers. You pretty much need local, horizontal, vertical, global, and pad as a minimum and the more layers the better the autorouter gets. Note that this is already more layers than generally exist on most PCBs which are typically 4 layer (upper, gnd, power, lower).

2) Changing layers in VLSI is relatively cheap without obstacle while changing layers in PCB is expensive and creates obstacles.

Changing a layer in VLSI is generally a couple of vias and no big deal. The vias are typically smaller than the metal track (but not always) and generally only connect the two layers in question.

Changing a layer on a PCB is generally expensive. PCB vias are generally larger than the metal trace and generally penetrate the entire PCB creating an obstacle on all layers. Take a look at PCB boards for FPGAs: they are generally 8+ layers and use expensive blind vias for routing breakout. Those kinds of PCBs are relatively expensive, and even those don't lend themselves to autorouting that well.

3) A lesser difference is that for high-speed signals PCB physical dimensions can be on the order of magnitude of the size of the wavelength of the signal being transmitted while VLSI dimensions are typically much smaller.

For example, a quarter wavelength for 6GHz is roughly 1cm which is generally bigger than most chips and significantly smaller than most PCBs. The design considerations for VLSI autorouting generally can ignore differences in routing length or layer changes (but not always).

On the other hand PCBs often need to be length matched fairly carefully for things like RAM buses. They also sometimes need to account for the fact that PCB materials are inhomogeneous--your routing track has different electromagnetic properties depending upon whether it is over glass fiber or epoxy. Thus, your PC motherboard tends to be routed at odd angles like 7 or 10 degrees to average out the effect.

Because of all of this, PCB autorouters are HARD and the KiCad developers have (rightfully, IMO) decided that they're time is much better spent on the myriad other features and bugs rather than developing a PCB autorouter.

However, if I'm sure that if you were willing to take a crack at it, the KiCad developers would be ecstatic to give a pointer to your amazing autorouter. Just be prepared that it's going to be quite difficult and you're going to get LOTS of complaints about how much it sucks.

I look forward to seeing your efforts.