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Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by switch007 on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:52AM (#37640387)
It’s hard not to think Londoners are entitled and ungrateful.

No other part of the country has ever had so much spent on mass transit nor will it ever. They have the finest public transport in the entire UK, and always will. I bet you can’t regularly do 1-40 mile journeys at the same speed and cost regularly anywhere else in the UK.

The media recently tried to make out the Elizabeth line was one of the worst services in the UK because it had the highest number of cancellations or something which is ridiculous because if the next train is 5 minutes away it doesn’t matter. Try living up North where hourly trains regularly get cancelled

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by djtango on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:25AM (#37640558)
I fully appreciate where you're coming from and everything you've said is true. But I feel like your opinion may differ if you lived on the south end of the Northern line and had to commute during summer. Doubly so if you were slightly shorter and had to spend your daily commute with your face in someone else's sweaty armpit...

The truth of many parts of London commuting is it's really quite unpleasant in many ways and so you're trained to really wish to spend as little time doing it as possible. If the heat, noise, air quality and congestion don't bother you there's also the threat of violence. A friend was assaulted (perp got GBH iirc) on the Victoria line and I've seen a fight break out on the escalators of Green Park at 9am...

I'm sufficiently jaded by public transport in London that my preferred means of getting around if I'm on my own is a lime bike. Any journey under 5 miles will probably be faster and considerably more pleasant.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by switch007 on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:36AM (#37640626)
[delayed]
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by djtango on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:57AM (#37640742)
Fair enough I don't really disagree with your overall point. Although there's taking the tube and then there's the Northern line where I've heard people going in the opposite direction to get upstream of the queues to get on...

Hopefully remote working will take some of the pressure off of the city because it really does feel overcrowded. Although personally I probably would still stay near London given it's both where I was born but also having access to international food and Heathrow are quite important as a third culture kid. I've considered moving out to somewhere much leafier but losing access to decent Asian food might be my undoing. That said, I hear Liverpool and Manchester are not bad in that department...

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:22AM (#37640882)
Birmingham is also magnificent for (south) Asian food. Glasgow too!
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by pif on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:12AM (#37640823)
> We really need to distribute the economic activity around the UK by properly investing in other towns and cities

I think your proposal is correct worldwide; it's not a UK-only problem. Unfortunately, it looks like humanity has not yet invented a successful economic model that doesn't require a cramped megacity (with a huge income inequality within) or stealing from other countries (see tax havens).

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by citrin_ru on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:52AM (#37641047)
Normalisation of work from home can reduce congestion in mega-cities. WFH during COVID has shown this.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:21AM (#37640872)
> We really need to distribute the economic activity around the UK by properly investing in other towns and cities

Ironically, this would be aided greatly by investing in public transport. Andy Haldane gave a great speech about this at the Sheffield Political Economy Research Institute in 2019 - the most salient bit is from page 37:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/speech/201...

Excuse the snip, highlighting PDFs is hard, but here's a key-ish quote:

> ..a measure of the “effective” working population. At peak times, the effective working population of Birmingham is perhaps 50% smaller than its measured population due to poor transport infrastructure. This helps explain why Birmingham punches below its demographic weight

Virtually all UK cities suffer from this. The problem, as ever, is a lack of investment and too many cars.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by mhh__ on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:34AM (#37640612)
British people in general are massively blinkered about trains. There are obviously flaws but if I said that I've seen Germans using british trains as an example of punctuality I'd imagine most people moaning about trains would be confused.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by TheChaplain on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:54AM (#37640729)
Well, London have over 8m people compared to second on the list, Birminghamn with slightly over 2m.

It's pretty obvious you need to spend a ton on public commuting options to avoid a chaotic hell during morning/evening rush (it's already chaos, but it could be much worse).

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by switch007 on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:02AM (#37640774)
That’s an argument for spending elsewhere, not London. London is already busy and crowded.

I’m pretty tired of this belief that it wasn’t investment that made London the economic giant it is - it infects even the DfT and treasury. Invest properly in other cities and they will be equally prosperous.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:41AM (#37640970)
It didn't infect the treasury, it originated there.

The treasury is a deeply broken institution, and it has always been resistant to losing "turf". In the 1960s Harold Wilson's administration tried to split its functions: the new Department for Economic Affairs would take the long view, and the treasury's job was to take the short view and deal with the markets. From what I recall reading (source needed, it was a long time ago and I forget the book) it was not just ministerial infighting that caused the problem: civil servants in the treasury didn't want to lose out to the DEA either.

It is always helpful to recall that the four great offices of state are, especially at the upper echelons, ancient institutions whose cultures are unlike anything most of us have experienced.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by virtualritz on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:55AM (#37640736)
> They have the finest public transport in the entire UK, [...]

It's all relative. If you compared this with Japan's public transport system, 'fine' would not be a word you'd use to describe the one in London.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by danw1979 on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:08AM (#37640804)
But you don’t have to go to Japan to make a comparison, you can, as the GP suggested, look at the rest of the country which has abysmal public transport - not fit for purpose - where at least it mostly works in London.

Before another penny in capital expenditure is spent on TFL, every other city in the country needs a metro and decent bus services.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:11AM (#37640817)
Leeds remains one of the largest cities in Europe with no tram, trolleybus, or metro system. This having had the offer of such things rescinded multiple times.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by danw1979 on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:17AM (#37640853)
Leeds was the specific example I had in mind when writing that comment. A city still entirely dominated by cars.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @07:12AM (#37641975)
With awful consequences for its productivity and environment, no less. It is easier to commute to central Leeds from Hebden Bridge, Saltaire, and Mythholmroyd than from actual suburbs of the city itself. Utterly ridiculous.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by switch007 on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:59AM (#37640755)
Totally but it’s the correct comparison to make. Most people can move to other parts of the UK, not to Japan
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by throwthrow5643 on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:30AM (#37640913)
Did you want to trade the British work environment and culture for its Japanese counterpart too?
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by HPsquared on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:47AM (#37641010)
Maybe? Japanese companies have a lot more loyalty to their employees.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by kergonath on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:56AM (#37640738)
> No other part of the country has ever had so much spent on mass transit nor will it ever.

This entirely true and very unfortunate. It is great to see Manchester making improvements on that front, for example, and I hope many cities will follow as the current model is absurd. Franchising like in London is not ideal but a marked improvement.

That said, there aren’t many places in the UK where a single train line can affect hundreds of thousands or a million people each week. Up to a point, improving transport around London is the best bang for your quid.

> Try living up North where hourly trains regularly get cancelled.

Yeah, but that’s a reason to improve the situation in the North, not to rejoice when something breaks down in the South. There are massive political issues to overcome for that, but the UK would be a better country overall if the North was taken seriously.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by hkt on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:27AM (#37640899)
> Up to a point, improving transport around London is the best bang for your quid.

I'm trying to limit snark in my responses to this article, but wow. It turns out if you invest in something continually at the expense of everywhere else it becomes the lynchpin of the system. Good grief.

The major reason people in the north hate hearing about investment in the south is because politically it is very clearly a zero sum game. If the south gets investment, the north doesn't.

For additional perspective, look at the Crossrail projects: hugely expensive with benefits only felt in one part of the country. (No, Londoners paying tax doesn't count)

For the cost of crossrail, or HS2, every city in the UK outside of London could have comprehensive tram networks and massive active travel infrastructure. What stings the most is that if London didn't exist, became independent, or fell into the sea, everyone else would likely benefit very rapidly.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by chriswarbo on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:23AM (#37642587)
> What stings the most is that if London didn't exist, became independent, or fell into the sea, everyone else would likely benefit very rapidly.

Almost all regions/cities make below-average contributions to the UK economy. That's because London drags the total way up (IIRC Bristol is the only other that's above-average, but barely).

That's obviously driven by a feedback-cycle that encourages investing in London rather than elsewhere. That does not imply that the rest of the UK would "benefit" from losing London; it would be an economic disaster.

The problem is that governments are focused on raising the UK's GDP, but that's the sum of each region's GDP and London's contribution is so large that it's equivalent to just maximising London (to optimise a weighted sum, put all the weight on the largest term). Perhaps a solution is to use metrics that combine regions geometrically (multiplying each region's GDP): that encourages investment in poor areas, since they drag down the result (rather than simply contributing less; and in the extreme case, a contribution of zero would wipe-out everything else).

We could do the same analysis on other partition too, e.g. multiplying each sector's contribution would make things less dependent on finiancial services.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by kergonath on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:52AM (#37655898)
> The major reason people in the north hate hearing about investment in the south is because politically it is very clearly a zero sum game. If the south gets investment, the north doesn't.

Indeed. But that’s politics, not a law of nature. The zero-sum game is completely artificial: the money tree does not exist until you need it and then it does. A sensible revitalisation policy for the North would pay for itself over the long term.

The incentives are really not great from a political point of view and that is very unfortunate. Still, hurting London economically won’t help the rest of the UK in any way.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by gambiting on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:06AM (#37640789)
Newcastle here - yep, you wait for a bus to get to work and it just doesn't arrive. That isn't once in a blue moon thing, it's a regular daily thing to a point where you literally can't rely on public transport to get to work or to school.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by williamvds on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:14AM (#37640837)
I'm aware of just how under invested the rest of UK infrastructure is outside of London, but that doesn't make complaints about it's services invalid.

With the billions spent on the purple pine, you'd reasonable expect a decent quality of service that doesn't involve cancelations and days of complete deadlock. Bet if you look at to comparable European countries this reliability would be a joke to them.

The train being every 5 minutes is only for central London, if you live further out you're only served by at most 1 in 3 trains. Missing one sucks much more, during rush hour you can bet you'll be crammed like sardines if you're not early.

I've only been commuting twice a week for about a year, and there have been several occurrences where I get to the station and all upcoming trains are delayed or canceled due to some line failure. The alternative route takes about twice as long if I want it to cost the same. You bet your arse TFL won't give you a refund if your regular route is untenable.

London gets more investment, definitely. But even so the outcomes still lag behind what you'd expect from the capital of such a wealthy country.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by HPsquared on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:45AM (#37640994)
My experience with German trains has been that they're often delayed and canceled. Lovely smooth tracks though.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by switch007 on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:08AM (#37641173)
If London infrastructure investment isn’t working out why don’t we try spending the money elsewhere, you know, for science.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by williamvds on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:38AM (#37641362)
Agreed, that's my personal plan.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by larschdk on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:27AM (#37640898)
I don't think it's being ungrateful, or at least not something unique to Londoners. People think and act relatively. We will always complain about the biggest issue we face, not matter how trivial it is compared others. Or you could say, we always try to improve no matter how good things are. We shouldn't stop fixing things or improving just because someone has it worse.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by barrysteve on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:57AM (#37641467)
Ungrateful?

Have you seen the DLR?

Fully automated, no hassle.

It's amazing to me that in <current year>, the whole Britian is not clamouring to get rid of Southwest trains that stop because there's leaves on the railway, and the next train is 20minutes away.

I'd rather not gamble being late in front of clients, in London, because leaves fell on some rails.

The Tube gets hotter in the summer than an Aussie beach. 40-50deg in the bowels of the Tube, for a cold and rainy country like the UK is insane.

People pay 3.5 quid for a 2minute journey through London, when you could just walk 10minutes instead.

London work places, set the expectations high, so the Tube should follow. It has nothing to do with the muggles that ride it, and blaming the people is blindness.

Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by drawfloat on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:24PM (#37648350)
Having worked in Kingston and had to endure Southwest trains, their service is still an absolute dream vs most of the rest of the country. Trains are cancelled, but the next service is 20 mins away, not hours, and they're not 1970s road bus bodies stuck on rails like Pacers.
Re:25% of the 13 minute journey from Whitechapel to Paddingt... by thebruce87m on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:14PM (#37650754)
To people outside the UK, when an English person speaks about the UK and mentions “the north”, they are not referring to the north of the UK, but instead to the north of England.