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Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by 8jef on Saturday September 23, 2023 @11:20PM (#37629878)
The situation is still the same, happening as we speak. This court case is from a long time ago, but look at the market since the Ryzen inception, the last five years, and you'll find it hard to purchase worthwhile AMD stuff outside of some niches (desktop CPUs, low quality plastic gaming laptops with TN screens, or super low quality budget laptops with sub-Ryzen apus). Just go to BestBuy, or browse Newegg, or else, and good luck finding a great Ryzen product in stock that you can purchase. All the interesting stuff, for creators, or graphic designers, or anything high end, they only have Intel products for sale.

Try this: find me an in-stock 2-in-1 Ryzen 7 or 9 metal case laptop with high nits 2k+ touchscreen, no discrete GPU, great backlit keyboard, a large battery, and a spare M.2 slot.

Or try to find anything bizarre or exotic (like those laptop with 2 screens instead of 1 + keyboard). Nothing with AMD, ever.

Almost all are / were easy to find in Intel flavor. Have fun trying to put your hands on any worthwile AMD product.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by tehlike on Saturday September 23, 2023 @11:21PM (#37629882)
Yes, i did this exercise few years ago, I wanted 4K screen with ryzen, and there was none. Ended up going with intel.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by bluecalm on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:31AM (#37630643)
ThinkPad T14 3rd gen? I didn't want a 4k screen but I think those were available 2-3 years ago.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by tehlike on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:01PM (#37634257)
You may be right.

This could have saved me having to carry a bulky charger. Next time!

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by clouddrover on Saturday September 23, 2023 @11:44PM (#37629970)
> Or try to find anything bizarre or exotic

Here's something exotic soon to be released with AMD:

https://frame.work

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by rgreekguy on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:42AM (#37631234)
"Soon to be released" is a big thing to say. Their shipping countries list is small.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by theodric on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:04AM (#37631690)
I ordered one for my wife so I've been treated to the stream of e-mails from Framework pushing back the definition of 'soon’ now into Q4 due to firmware issues. And it looks like they're just shipping anyway despite not being able to use USB-A modules in the rear 2 slots without "high power consumption."Appears they're assuming they'll find a solution down the road to make the system fit for purpose.

Really making me question my choices here. Should have just bought her a Lenovo.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by clouddrover on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:20AM (#37632092)
You chose to pre-order a first generation product (their first AMD release) from a small company. There were always going to be problems and delays because there always are. The error you made was pre-ordering it a long way out.

You could always cancel your pre-order, get your deposit refunded, and just buy the Lenovo. You could also get a 13th gen Intel Framework 13 right now.

I've pre-ordered a Framework 13 AMD. I'm not as worried about it because I only placed the order recently and I'm across all of the issues.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by clouddrover on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:11AM (#37632042)
> "Soon to be released" is a big thing to say.

Not really. They've shipped three iterations of their Intel laptop (11th, 12th, and 13th gen Intels). The Framework 13 AMD and Framework 16 AMD laptops are their first AMD products.

The Framework 13 AMD started production a couple of weeks ago:

https://frame.work/blog/now-available-in-taiwan

They'll start shipping them soon.

> Their shipping countries list is small.

Framework is still a small company. They'll add more countries as they grow.

The brief was "exotic". I delivered exotic.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by NikkiA on Saturday September 23, 2023 @11:53PM (#37630003)
> newegg

This is about the EU, it's no surprise that Intel continue to be monopolistic and abuse the market in a market that makes no attempts to control abusive companies.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by rcbdev on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:46AM (#37630721)
Yes. I feel like AMD consumer laptops are much more the norm in EU compared to US - Funny how that works out.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by dietr1ch on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:34AM (#37630661)
It was easy to see there was something wrong. I've been trying to find a similar machine and couldn't find one, the closest was an asus zephyrus, but I didn't really wanted to pay for an nvidia discrete GPU just to disable to due to shitty drivers, nor wanted its plastic case.

I ended up just replacing the battery on my old laptop in the meantime. TBH the only reason to upgrade would be the screen

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by winter_blue on Sunday September 24, 2023 @02:34AM (#37630662)
The Asus Zephyrus G14 and G15 series, which were almost universally hailed as being one of the finest laptops in terms of build quality[1], come with Ryzen CPUs.

[1] during the covid era; here's one example from Feb '21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuoHW5EiJdQ

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by baz00 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:11AM (#37630832)
I think it’s more complicated than that. It’s not just incentivised stuff from intel. There is little to no market for high end stuff from AMD. Some vendors tried and it didn’t sell. Most of the workstation consumers I know won’t touch AMD after a couple of bad experiences. Even had one myself where I had to dump an AMD desktop because of reliability issues which went on for months.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by tjoff on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:31AM (#37630908)
What do you mean there is no market for high end stuff from AMD? That's like saying "there is no market for high end PCs". I know people are confused, but they are not buying "an Intel", they are buying "a Dell". If that happened to have an AMD CPU inside 98% of people would never now - unless Dell made a point to tell them.

Yes, some vendors tried to put a good CPU in a budget chassi, worst screen you could find, no battery life, terrible build quality etc. No shit it didn't sell.

And not sure what "bad experiences" here amount to, has nothing to do with what CPU was inside but most probably the brand of the device. And that might partly because the vendor had no experience in that ecosystem and had to do much from scratch or whatever.

But most likely they just didn't put in the effort (if the poor build quality and components didn't already tell you that), which kind of makes sense given the weird situation we are in.

How much of that can be attributed to intel, and how much can be attributed to vendors having absolutely no vision and no desire to make anything but literal safe crap, I have no idea.

But, even if intel didn't do anything wrong I wouldn't be surprised with the outcome. It is not like the ecosystem for intel hardware is great either. It took decades before microsoft gave up and launched their own Surface-line of computers simply because all the combined efforts of all manufacturers could barely produce anything of value.

Just as google had to launch their own Pixel line because all other vendors would just produce crap that people then associated with android.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by baz00 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:43AM (#37630959)
Completely wrong. Purchasers buy Intel if there is a choice. A huge amount of people got burned by shitty AMD hardware. Right into Ryzen era. Intel stuff tends to just work.

As for problems it’s usually reliability issues with power management, network and occasional crashes. And that’s from big brand integrators like Lenovo. You just don’t get the same poor experience with their Intel parts.

I mean when we bought a huge chunk of T14s recently, an actual factor in the decision analysis was “not the AMD variety”.

It might be hardware, it might be software but no one has the time or energy to dig through that.

Anecdotally I built a Ryzen 3700X workstation from scratch a couple of years ago. Nothing but trouble. Some days it wouldn’t even boot until the third attempt. And that gets to decision makers and they make decisions.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by tjoff on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:55AM (#37631008)
Ok, so then don't buy series <X> from Lenovo then. But you ought to already have known that when you bought it because it probably wasn't exactly high-end was it?

And when you get a bad batch "from Intel" you don't exactly ditch Intel do you? No. Ditch Lenovo if they can't make computers.

You are completely missing the point.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by danmur on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:57AM (#37631021)
It's just one computer so not much of a data point, but I feel obliged to mention I've had a desktop AMD (Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core) running databases and various other applications for a couple years and it's been superb. Not one single issue, never have to reboot it, last time it went off was about four months ago from a power failure.

My biggest complaint is that it's even harder (or possibly more confusing) to work out how to get an AMD running ECC RAM than it is for Intel, and that's saying something.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by nottorp on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:20AM (#37631770)
> A huge amount of people got burned by shitty AMD hardware.

AMD or whatever crap Dell put in to keep AMD the cheapest crappiest option, perhaps contingent on “marketing funds” from Intel?

If you build it yourself you can get a fast stable AMD desktop. Prebuilts tend to be shitty and I wonder why…

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by INTPenis on Sunday September 24, 2023 @03:49AM (#37630983)
I can attest to this. I've been hunting like a mad man for a good Ryzen laptop ever since Zen 3 first came out.

It was eventually OK for Windows users but for Linux users you had to settle for a cheap wifi chipset in any AMD laptop. I finally managed to at least find a mediatek chipset instead of qualcomm, but I really would like an intel wifi chipset with a Ryzen CPU.

And don't even get me started on high resolution, or touchscreen monitors.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by codedokode on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:26AM (#37631152)
What's good in Intel WiFi chips? They don't work in access point mode.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by INTPenis on Sunday September 24, 2023 @09:48AM (#37633081)
The driver. With qualcomm I had signal issues, connectivity issues. With mediatek it works well so far at least but I think the intel Linux driver is the most mature one.

Unless you want to run an access point of course, I have no idea abou that.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by noelwelsh on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:44AM (#37631242)
Framework laptop?
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by theodric on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:18AM (#37631406)
I recently picked up a ThinkPad E14 gen 2 with a Ryzen 7 4700U for €200. The gen 3 version has Zen 3 CPUs. The Wi-Fi card is M.2 A+E compatible, and although it shipped with Intel Wi-Fi 6, I upgraded it to a 6E card for €20. It is a cheap but nice-cheap laptop that seems like it matches what you're looking for.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by runeks on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:18AM (#37631125)
Devil’s advocate: where’s the evidence that this is caused by anti-competitive practices by Intel?

Most people have no idea what AMD or Intel — let alone a CPU — is. It seems plausible that AMD isn’t popular because the average consumer isn’t demanding it.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by eatyourglory on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:00AM (#37631665)
I know for sure most people don't know either of them.

But, more people know the name Intel from those Intel stickers on those old laptops people used back in the day.

So because those worked fine for them, they just choose to ask for the same name, making Intel over AMD.

I'm sure there are more factors than just these that make Intel the most popular CPU brand, but this is the best one I could think.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by bayindirh on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:20AM (#37632091)
While I can’t give the specifics, I can say that I have experienced this in the server space repeatedly.

Manufacturers were not able to design equivalent servers due to pressure from Intel, or need to delay equivalent or more powerful AMD platforms.

AMD is still has more PCIe lanes and better for high bandwidth requiring tasks like dense GPU computing.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by wildrhythms on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:44AM (#37632228)
>where’s the evidence that this is caused by anti-competitive practices by Intel?

The examples cited in the article:

>Specifically, the Commission cited examples where Intel paid HP not to sell AMD-powered business PCs to small and medium businesses through direct channels from 2002-2005. It also paid Acer to delay the launch of an AMD-based notebook from late 2003 to early 2004. Intel also paid Lenovo to push back the launch of AMD notebooks by six months.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by runeks on Sunday September 24, 2023 @08:40AM (#37632589)
I'm not taking about the article. I'm asking the person I'm replying to who says "The situation is still the same, happening as we speak".
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by ffgjgf1 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @01:08PM (#37634959)
Any evidence that they are still doing that 20 years later?
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by jiofj on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:26AM (#37631156)
Or it is consumer choice.

For decades, AMD/ATI have been sold to me as "like Intel/nVidia, but cheaper". I've fallen for that trick several times and I have always regretted my purchase.

AMD will never get any money from me ever again. Perhaps I'm not the only one.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by wasyl on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:07AM (#37631703)
Can you elaborate on some of the reasons why you regretted the purchases?
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by jiofj on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:30AM (#37631824)
CPUs: thermal issues, sometimes performance.

GPUs: terrible, awful drivers and compatibility.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by dharmab on Sunday September 24, 2023 @08:00AM (#37632315)
The people downvoting you haven't used the older AMD Windows GPU drivers, or run heavy VR workloads on modern AMD GPUs.

I say this as an AMD fan who is very happy with my 5900X/6900XT system.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by ChoGGi on Sunday September 24, 2023 @11:26AM (#37633961)
> The people downvoting you haven't used the older AMD Windows GPU drivers

The exact reason why I stuck with Nvidia since buying a 1080. I got it for the perf, but I stayed with Nvidia for the drivers.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by machinekob on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:44AM (#37631240)
People are just not buying AMD stuff and AMD wasn't able to provide enough chips when they want (last year case when they just "paper" launch chips 4fun with big hype) it's not some hidden conspiracy.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by cedilla on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:46AM (#37631254)
It is a conspiracy. Intel was repeatedly found guilty. Not only with AMD but also with other competitors.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by machinekob on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:01AM (#37631321)
Not in 2022-2023 wtf are you talking about.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by automatic6131 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @04:57AM (#37631301)
I own a Ryzen gaming laptop with an aluminum/magnesium chassis (although, yes, plastic top). Yes, it has a discrete GPU, but it also has an FHD IPS panel. I deliberately chose against the 4k option I think existed, because a 4k 15" panel is like fitting wheels to a tomato
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by rjh29 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:07AM (#37631351)
Asking for a M.2 slot idk but you're ignoring the entire thinkpad line here.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by panick21_ on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:28AM (#37631472)
I think its far more about how Intel has its own fabs and has far larger capacity in production. AMD is production limited and depends on TSMC and shares new nodes with Apple and others.

I don't really see the issue, there are Ryzen think pads I could order right now.

> Try this: find me an in-stock 2-in-1 Ryzen 7 or 9 metal case laptop with high nits 2k+ touchscreen, no discrete GPU, great backlit keyboard, a large battery, and a spare M.2 slot.

Maybe it just that your tastes are not that common.

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by jdblair on Sunday September 24, 2023 @05:57AM (#37631647)
I pre-ordered the latest Framework 13 with a Ryzen 7840U, an exception that admittedly proves your point.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by rat9988 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:14AM (#37632057)
I feel like the exception doesn't prove his point at all.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by jdblair on Sunday September 24, 2023 @12:10PM (#37634352)
its not mainstream
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by machinekob on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:51AM (#37640717)
It is considering its partially owned by few YouTubers and you hear about them everywhere, they are not as big as Dell or Asus but they are on the market only for few years so.
Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by mschuster91 on Sunday September 24, 2023 @06:15AM (#37631744)
> This court case is from a long time ago, but look at the market since the Ryzen inception, the last five years, and you'll find it hard to purchase worthwhile AMD stuff outside of some niches (desktop CPUs, low quality plastic gaming laptops with TN screens, or super low quality budget laptops with sub-Ryzen apus).

cough Acer Swift X

Re:EU fines Intel $400M for blocking AMD's market access by Kuinox on Sunday September 24, 2023 @07:32AM (#37632158)
Framework have AMD laptop in stocks.