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Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by JumpCrisscross on Thursday September 21, 2023 @05:09PM (#37604382)
> Can the search result quality be quantified somehow?

Encourage you to try it. I've repeated Scott Galloway's mantra that advertisement is a tax on America's poor and stupid. But I never quite clocked the cost of search ads. It might be solely due to that lack of scrolling through crud that makes Kagi seem much, much faster than Google or DuckDuckGo.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by dylan604 on Thursday September 21, 2023 @05:35PM (#37604721)
Isn't that the same thing said about Lotto/scratch-offs/etc?
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by oaktowner on Thursday September 21, 2023 @07:36PM (#37605921)
A good friend once described the lottery as "a tax on people with bad math skills" and I don't think I've played since.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by bee_rider on Thursday September 21, 2023 @10:38PM (#37607223)
I don’t play the lottery, but I think this is not really correct.

Playing the lottery must be an action that has a negative expected value (otherwise they’d go out of business). But if, rather than expected value, you are optimizing for “probability of having a hundred million dollars” or whatever, your options are: keep the money you would have spent on the ticket (0% chance of success) or buy the ticket (very small chance of success).

So, I can see why people go for it. Especially if the ticket cost won’t make an actual difference to their life circumstances, and the winning money would.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by yunwal on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:12AM (#37607771)
I think it's still probably better to throw all the money down on an unlikely sports bet or some crazy options trade. The lottery is particularly skewed to the house.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Falkon1313 on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:29AM (#37607872)
$2 isn't going to get much from an options trade, or a sports bet either.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by dazc on Friday September 22, 2023 @01:19AM (#37608183)
I can see a potential problem here in that a sizeable win from a random bet is likely to encourage some people to keep making these bets in future, with inevitable consequences.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by bluGill on Friday September 22, 2023 @05:54AM (#37610028)
At least with sports betting skill can make money. Just betting on the first place team to win over the last place team for example, it won't always win, but typically will. Of course bookies know this and so the payoff isn't enough to make a living on (if you can figure out the exception and bet only on the last place teams that win you can live well). Statistics are generally well studied in sports, but if you study how a team is coached you can find cases where they have a better than statistical chance to win a game they are expected to lose. Most people betting sports either always bet for their team, or bet on statistics, so if you can exploit something else.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by NotSuspicious on Friday September 22, 2023 @07:39AM (#37610682)
You can buy a lottery ticket for every single big jackpot for a year and lose less than your average options trader. The value is the feeling you get that you and your family might not have to work for the rest of your lives. That feeling is clearly and obviously worth a dollar a day.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by audiodude on Thursday September 21, 2023 @11:20PM (#37607435)
I don't love the lottery or scratch offs, though I don't mind playing occasionally.

But what I can't stand is the self perceived moral superiority of people who are like "haha, lottery is for idiots!"

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by dazc on Friday September 22, 2023 @01:16AM (#37608165)
People still win the lottery though, bad math skills or not.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by kelnos on Thursday September 21, 2023 @08:29PM (#37606350)
It's complicated.

I go to Vegas and gamble sometimes, which is not all that different. I don't gamble because I expect to win money; I gamble because the experience (especially with more social games like craps) is fun to me, even when I lose. Certainly it's not fun to everyone, but roller coasters aren't fun to everyone either, and that's fine.

If you only gamble or play the lottery because you genuinely think you have a reasonable shot of coming out ahead (vs. other uses for that money), then you may have a problem. Or if you have an addiction to gambling and it's actually hurting your finances.

The other bit is that if you're poor, and playing the lottery is a way for you to build a little hope into your life (even if, deep down, you know you're unlikely to win), that's... questionable, maybe? Not an indictment of yourself, but it calls into question societal structures that essentially profit off your low-level financial despair, in return for lessening that despair a little, but only with a placebo. When instead society should instead be helping you, to, y'know, not be poor.

But hey, if someone allocates $5 in their budget to buy scratch-offs every day, I'd say that's probably better for their health than eating a $5 ice cream sundae every day.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by dylan604 on Thursday September 21, 2023 @10:13PM (#37607088)
Look at the numbers of the people playing lotto/scratch-offs. Look at where they are being sold. These are targeted at a specific group of people. You can try to whitewash it all you want, but it only makes you look naive. Especially that last sentence of yours. I'm really struggling to not get banned for commenting to this, but I'd suggest taking some rose tinted glasses off and taking a real look at this issue.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by flagrant_taco on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:08AM (#37607745)
Can you help me understand how this is whitewashing exactly? I guess you could invent a term like poor-washing, but where did race come into this?
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by shkkmo on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:22AM (#37607835)
The term "whitewashing", like many uses of the color "white" has nothing to do with race. Rather, it is a metaphor referencing a type of paint.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewashing_(censorship)

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by d-z-m on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:59AM (#37610435)
Recently, it has also become a term of art in Hollywood to refer to what are deemed racially inaccurate castings.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by flagrant_taco on Friday September 22, 2023 @08:25AM (#37611075)
There are many meanings to the term whitewashing, including applying a semitransparent white finish to wood.

I may have simply misread the GP and picked the wrong meaning, but I was going with this definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/whitewashing-words-...

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by shkkmo on Friday September 22, 2023 @01:25PM (#37614878)
Not only have I never heard that definition used, I don't see how that definition makes any sense in context. The older, more commonly used meaning is clearly the one being used here.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by flagrant_taco on Saturday September 23, 2023 @12:21AM (#37620554)
Well that is why I asked. I have heard whitewashing used quite a few times in this way, though usually in the context of film or TV. I very well could have just missed it in the moment.

Again, this is why I asked how it was the race-based version of whitewashing rather than immediately going into a debate. I wanted to clarify my understanding and see if I missed anything before jumping down someone's throat, would have been nice to get the same courtesy here.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by shkkmo on Saturday September 23, 2023 @07:10PM (#37628487)
You didn't ask for clarification on which meaning was used or even bother to lookup the term on your own first.

I fail so see how providing you with the correct meaning is "jumping down your throat".

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by pbhjpbhj on Friday September 22, 2023 @03:43AM (#37609111)
The poor people who buy a $5 ice-cream sundae every day are the ones addicted to food ... people are not making a freely reasoned choice to spend money gambling, poor people are in a vulnerable position and lottery runners exploit that with heavy advertising to ensure people are hooked on the idea they can improve things by spending money on what seems like hope.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by rchaud on Friday September 22, 2023 @09:43AM (#37611972)
> But hey, if someone allocates $5 in their budget to buy scratch-offs every day, I'd say that's probably better for their health than eating a $5 ice cream sundae every day.

What happens when you have $5, but you win the scratchcard, and now you have $10?

A person buying ice cream every day, probably isn't going to want to be buy 2 on the same day. Can the same be said for lotto patrons?

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by InitialLastName on Friday September 22, 2023 @10:12AM (#37612315)
If they spend the $10 on scratch-offs that didn't pay, are they any worse off than they would be if the first hadn't paid?

Arguably, they'd be better off having had 3X the entertainment for their dollar.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by meroes on Thursday September 21, 2023 @07:10PM (#37605703)
Even those who don’t think ads affect them are mistaken. And if you extirpate ads completely from your life the tax is your time and effort to do so. That’s one of the most toxic mantras, it even seems purposefully misguiding.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by gaudystead on Thursday September 21, 2023 @10:46PM (#37607262)
I mostly agree, but I've been blocking ads however ways I can for years now, and I'd say a few minutes of setup has saved me HOURS of dealing with ads at this point.

Plus... Building a PiHole was downright fun and easy.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Falkon1313 on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:34AM (#37607911)
I wish I'd been able to get the pihole to work as easily as it sounded. It looked cool. But it was incompatible with the router from the ISP I had at the time, and rather than also buy and setup a new router, I just packed it away. Now I have a new ISP with a different router, and I'm sure it's incompatible too.

But at least it only takes 30 seconds to install ublock origin, and no extra hardware.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by comprev on Friday September 22, 2023 @02:21AM (#37608540)
Consider using NextDNS to help block ads on both individual devices and network-wide too.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Silasdev on Friday September 22, 2023 @04:51AM (#37609605)
You should really consider getting a proper router like Unifi or the like. It's a one time cost and it will save you from these issues no matter what ISP supplied crap you end up getting.

Just plug whatever ISP router directly into your own, more capable, router and your home network will look identical, no matter where you move to or how many times you change ISP.

That said, running Pi-hole on a Raspberry pi is a treat!

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by lostlogin on Friday September 22, 2023 @05:41AM (#37609933)
I used a EdgeRouter and it was amazing, though a little-hair raising as a complete rookie.

The Unifi line solves this, and while it has some rough edges, it is so great. 9/10.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by manishsharan on Friday September 22, 2023 @03:16PM (#37616428)
I don't have PiHole but this instead https://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ on all laptops.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by meroes on Saturday September 30, 2023 @01:29PM (#37717685)
I know this is late but I did a PiHole for years as well. But then I needed another solution for being out of the house, and my housemate later complained they wanted to see Facebook ads…

And like the other poster my gateway didn’t work with a a pihole so I had to change each clients’ DNS (which reverting for the housemate was a solution).

It was worth it but ultimately I needed more than just a pihole, sideloading my iPhone every week with custom YouTube apps, trying to find a custom twitch app to sideload, having to use Yewtu.be on mobile, etc. None of the apps like Adguard blocked ads in other apps well enough from what I experienced.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by MatthiasPortzel on Thursday September 21, 2023 @09:16PM (#37606690)
You can turn off ads in DuckDuckGo. Settings > General > Advertisements = Off.

Obviously you can also use an ad blocker, but I think DuckDuckGo deserves more credit for making it a first-party option.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by bee_rider on Thursday September 21, 2023 @10:43PM (#37607248)
Advertising has always felt zero-sum to me. Like, I already want shoes, the ad isn’t going to wear holes in the soles of my old ones, the holes are there already, so the ad will just push me one way or another.

So, I guess it is not just a tax on the poor and stupid. Everyone has to pay, company A buys ads, company B burns an equally large pile of money to cancel it out, and we’re just back where we started.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by JumpCrisscross on Thursday September 21, 2023 @11:19PM (#37607425)
> Advertising has always felt zero-sum to me

Your attention is valuable. Your data, your preferences, your identity--these are valuable. (They may be the only thing about humans that, economically, is.)

When you see an ad, your brain deploys coping mechanisms [1]. The tax isn't paid with money, but with time and neurology.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/363287602_Coping_wi...

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Thorrez on Friday September 22, 2023 @12:55AM (#37608032)
If you're a new company, buying ads can help you get customers who would otherwise have bought something from your older, more well-known competitor.

Disclosure: I work for Google, but not on ads.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by vxNsr on Friday September 22, 2023 @01:40AM (#37608300)
Hmmm… my impression was that Google is an ad company, wasn’t aware they did anything but collect data for ads and deliver ads, I’m curious to hear what you work on that isn’t “ads”
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by abind on Friday September 22, 2023 @03:19AM (#37608938)
Ever heard of google cloud?
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by vxNsr on Saturday September 23, 2023 @11:42PM (#37629961)
Didn’t think it was a real business. But regardless isn’t that also just the services they use internally just externalized for general consumption. So still in many ways supporting the ad business.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by kridsdale3 on Monday October 02, 2023 @03:01PM (#37742824)
It may not be market leader (IIRC it's a distant 3rd) but it is a profitable self-sustaining business unit that employed tens of thousands of engineers.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Thorrez on Saturday September 23, 2023 @01:29AM (#37620784)
Currently I work on internal security. Preventing hackers from stealing data, like[1]. I worked on GCP for a while.

My point isn't that my paycheck doesn't come from ads or that I've washed my hands from that dirty ad business. What I meant was that I don't really have internal knowledge about ads, I'm not an authority, and also I don't speak for Google's ad business.

However, after I posted my comment I realized my statement, while true literally, was misleading, because I did intern in ads in 2015, which I had forgotten about when I posted my previous comment. So I'm sorry for that mistake.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by bee_rider on Friday September 22, 2023 @09:53AM (#37612086)
Unless the older, more well-known company has a larger ad budget, which seems… very likely.
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Thorrez on Saturday September 23, 2023 @01:26AM (#37620770)
Without ads the big company gets 100% of the mindshare and the small one gets 0%.

With ads the big company gets 99% of the mindshare and the small one gets 1%.

Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by Thorrez on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:50AM (#37670675)
I just came across this example of how ads help (or at least helped) small and medium businesses: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37662179
Re:Unlimited Kagi searches for $10 per month by 5e92cb50239222b on Friday September 22, 2023 @01:32AM (#37608263)
I have personally seen people pushed into buying crap they don't need (and didn't even think about a few minutes before) by ads they saw on the internet. I don't like playing tech support for others, but installing ad blockers for technically illiterate friends and acquaintances now feels like a socially responsible thing to do.