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Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by notpushkin on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @04:20AM (#37581762)
By the way, are there any plans for taking on other HashiCorp products as well? (Packer and Nomad are of particular interest to me :-)
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by echelon on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @04:41AM (#37581906)
The dismantling of HashiCorp because they tried to save themselves from Amazon swallowing them is sad.

Open Source businesses have no future in a world where big tech can gulp your product for free.

The OpenTofu folks will probably even raise capital to support commercialization of their thing at some point.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by notpushkin on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @04:54AM (#37581981)
HashiCorp could pull it off, but I think moving everything to BSL overnight is just way too aggressive. I also don't think it's Amazon they are afraid of, but rather the other “cloud Terraform” providers (who unsurprisingly are the ones behind the fork).

For my own project [1], I'm planning on keeping the basic edition open and maybe adding an enterprise edition later on under BSL – basically like MariaDB does. I think that's the most fair model you can do right now.

[1]: https://lunni.dev/, a Docker Swarm dashboard

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by jnsaff2 on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @05:24AM (#37582168)
Which HashiCorp OSS product is Amazon hosting for clients as part of their cloud offering?

Their stuff pretty much all competes with it.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by emptysongglass on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @05:48AM (#37582292)
I generally like your takes but this one isn't very good since it wasn't Amazon that was the threat.

HashiCorp couldn't compete. Their enterprise offerings were bad and their price quotes were insane and unrealistic. I worked at two companies who rejected them because their pricing was so ludicrous. The TACoS space of small startups nimbly out-competed these bad offerings.

Rent-seeking because you weren't able to compete with tiny startups able to effectively value add where you didn't is a bad strategy that pisses people off. I shed no tears for them and their rich founder who posts tweets of his solo flights to visit his rich friends.

Corporations didn't seem to understand that when you participate in the OSS ecosystem you don't just get to trade on the name recognition. Or if you do, and you renege on those promises, you're going to get a lot of people very angry.

So now we have companies going BSL because they didn't have a good business plan to begin with and this is their dying gasp to own the space so someone will pay them and not their much smarter, more creative, startup competitors.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by georgyo on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @06:42AM (#37582594)
This, so much this.

HashiCorp pricing just made it simply impossible to pay them.

Their plan was to provide a free offering that was very good, get companies hooked, and then charge our the nose for any enterprisy feature.

The problem was how they charged, which they don't reveal until after you contact sales. You could build a solution using the free offering that works very well. Then years later want something paid offerings and contact sales and find out that they charge over 1000USD per clients, and you have 1000 clients. Oops, guess I'm just going to engineer my own solution for that. 1 million a year buys a lot of development and operational.

It's really hard to go to management and say this open source thing we are running and serving the companies needs will now cost millions of dollars.

Though I understand HashiCorp position somewhat. I'm sure their sales team has repeatedly heard that a potential client has decided they don't need the feature they called about since the free solution is good enough and can engineer around any short commons.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by Terretta on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:09AM (#37582752)
> 1 million a year buys a lot of development and operational

Not all that much. At a global enterprise, for instance, that buys a couple senior systems engineers with SDLC experience after you include all the per-employee overhead that doubles their cost beyond their comp.

Terraform saves the enterprise far more than that in overhead. If Terraform provides even 10% lift across 1000 seats, that's many times its cost.

At a million a year, you'd need it to save you between 2 and 4 headcount to break even, not counting the compliance/audit/security benefits.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by georgyo on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:33AM (#37582905)
You missed my point I think.

Terraform is immensely valuable.

The open source bits is 90% of that value.

An enterprise will _already_ have a team managing terraform infra. Them building the parts they need from that remaining 10% may be cheaper then paying HashiCorp. This is a difficult sell.

Also, a ton of Terraform's value comes from the fact that there are modules for everything. Some or developed by HashiCorp but most are developed by vendors or even users who want terraform support.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by adrianN on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:32AM (#37582896)
A global enterprise can pay a whole team of senior engineers in Warsaw or Cluj for a million a year.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by vasco on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @10:43AM (#37584815)
You've either done a lot of tech sales yourself or bought into the kool-aid software salespeople hand out. Their bread and butter is overstating per-engineer costs and hardware ownership costs, but it doesn't mean they're right.

In many places in europe you can hire a team of ~10 engineers already fully loaded for $1 million a year, or like 2 seniors and 4 midlevels or any combo like this. This is based off of 1st hand experience hiring for these salaries.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by Jka9rhnDJos on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @03:08PM (#37588618)
Yeah, but it buys 3 senior consultants, and they’re a fixed cost/capital expense and can be cut at any time. Operationally, it’s not that expensive to keep a Terraform platform floating. It’s expensive to build, and most companies need it yesterday. But bring in 3 people to support a team to build it in a year, then cut them free when it’s in v1, and leave your team to iterate and update. And now you’re not paying $1mm a year or more after that forever.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by dfinninger on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:51PM (#37618810)
I think the point is that those three senior engineers could figure out how to do some SAML wrapper or remote execution on top of Open-Source Terraform instead of paying for the turn-key “Enterprise” features.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by elorm on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:03AM (#37582713)
> I shed no tears for them and their rich founder who posts tweets of his solo flights to visit his rich friends.

Couldn’t keep out a personal dig at Mitchell, who happens to be one of the most unproblematic people at Hashicorp and certainly doesn’t care or participate much in governance ? Seems like a lot of personal feelings were packed into this innocuous-posturing statement.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by emptysongglass on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:23AM (#37582842)
It wasn't innocuous or posturing. I actually pack my real feelings about a whole range of topics under this pseudonym all the time. And no, I don't particularly like Mitchell.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by benterix on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:09AM (#37583668)
In this context I don't see your point. If I remember correctly, Hashimoto was the founder/CEO when Hashicorp products were being released as Open Source. Now he is no longer in charge (doing some development work I think) and someone else took the decision to change the license to BSL. So I don't see any relevancy here.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by benterix on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:03AM (#37583616)
> Their enterprise offerings were bad and their price quotes were insane and unrealistic.

To clarify: the products themselves were and still are very good, with minor quirks.

As for pricing, there is a class of companies that set extremely high margins (this doesn't apply just to Hashicorp, see the the pricing of Gruntwork which I believe contributes to OpenTofu). This game reduces the number of customers but also the number of problems you need to deal with. This strategy is perfectly fine and I have no complaints - I built my own HA Vault cluster solution and used remote AWS backend instead of Hashicorp Cloud. But the license change was a game changer - Hashicorp is still a strong player in the market, but no longer the default choice.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by emptysongglass on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:15AM (#37583729)
We actually used Gruntwork at a past company over paying HashiCorp for enterprise Terraform. Their prices then were around 5k for a ready to go Reference Architecture. Apart from that one-time cost which we didn't pay because we built an RA ourselves, Gruntwork's prices were extremely reasonable. I don't think the comparison here is fair unless Gruntwork's prices have dramatically changed since then (I just checked: seems the same now as it was then).

I also don't particularly agree with your clarification on my part. I think their products are slim on features especially in light of what you're paying and a Terraform shop should almost always be opting for a TACoS solution over HashiCorp's.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by epolanski on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @05:51AM (#37582305)
I have mixed feelings about that.

Yes, doing money on open source is hard, but on the other hand, the reason why you were successful was because you were open source in the first place and capitalized on millions of hours of free work from unpaid contributors which would've neither contributed nor adopted your product otherwise.

Imho, if you can't compete with other cloud offerings of your products then your cloud offering is weak. Competing with Amazon on prices is obviously hard, but not impossible, and it's easy to compete with them on customer service because it's your goddamn product and you should have the best expertise on it.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by theK on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:05AM (#37582722)
> capitalized on millions of hours of free work from unpaid contributors

Does this hypothesis really hold up? In my experience the contributor community remains small and often even dormant compared to the userbase of an opensource project only to take action if the project itself gets in turmoil (main developer leaves, bad takes on features etc.)

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by prmoustache on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:41AM (#37583995)
In the case of terraform the main interesting bit is not terraform itself but the modules.

What is the ratio of terraform dev vs third party dev in most popular terraform modules?

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by tacticus on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @06:08AM (#37582407)
> The dismantling of HashiCorp because they tried to save themselves from Amazon swallowing them is sad.

save themselves from others building a less shit version of terraform cloud.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by benterix on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:11AM (#37583682)
This will happen anyway; what they could do is to gain some time, that's all. But long-term consequences will be serious, I'm not sure if it was worth it.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by RobotToaster on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @06:28AM (#37582522)
Open Source businesses have no future as Open Source businesses if they aren't using Open Source licences.

What I find odd in these situations, that have happened multiple times now, is the companies go straight from "weak" licenses like the MPL, straight to "source available" ones. Surely it would have been a good idea to try a strong copyleft licence like AGPL first.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by ghaff on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @06:58AM (#37582676)
AGPL is seen as a no-go by most companies. It's viewed as risky because the obligations associated with it are often unclear.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by notpushkin on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:01AM (#37582697)
Surely those companies can pay for an alternative license then?
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by FridgeSeal on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @07:55AM (#37583081)
I’ve had this argument with people ad infinitum; it seems some people just see “AGPL” and any further thought process just stops.

“You could ask or pay for an alternate licence” or “you’re almost certainly not using this in a way that means you need to open source your entire product” and any other rational argument you can think of are just met with “yeah but agpl” and that’s apparently just the end of it.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by ghaff on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @08:01AM (#37583119)
The thing is, at that point, why not just put it under a proprietary license in the first place? Lots of companies simply don’t have AGPL on their list of legal approved open source licenses and they’re not going to change that for you.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:43AM (#37584014)
Depends on why you want an open-source license in the first place.

If it's to bait in companies to use your product and then offer more features under a proprietary license, then something that's more attractive to companies like a permissive (corporate charity) license is a better choice. If it's to ensure that everyone who uses the software can contribute to the development, something like the GPL or AGPL is better.

There can be other reasons to pick a corporate charity license, of course, but encouraging corporations to use your software is certainly one of the most common.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by satvikpendem on Thursday September 21, 2023 @01:58AM (#37593725)
Because AGPL is open source and not proprietary, that's the reason. Open source doesn't necessarily mean that anyone can use it as they please, they must abide by the terms of the license. If they don't want to, then they can find another project, or get a different license for it.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by LtWorf on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:00AM (#37583597)
I get regularly harassed for having dared to publish a library under GPL license.

Developers are so entitled, they don't even ever reflect they are taking without giving back all the time.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by thinkmassive on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @09:59AM (#37584228)
The entire Grafana LGTM stack is phenomenal, and it’s widely used.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by ghaff on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @10:36AM (#37584716)
Grafana is dual licensed however since they, relatively recently, switched to AGPL.
Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by RobotToaster on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @10:32AM (#37584658)
Then they can pay for an alternative licence for their closed source project.

It's a win/win/win, open source projects will still support it, so you don't get the backlash from the community, while those who just want to take will either pay or find a different project.

With BSL and similar, you end up looking like the "bad guy", and the forkers look like the "good guys". With AGPL you will still look like the open source "good guy", and if someone makes a fork they look like money grabbing assholes.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by ghaff on Wednesday September 20, 2023 @10:40AM (#37584770)
I don’t know how effective it is in general but dual licensing like Grafana now does seems a reasonable option.

I assume there may be forks of the older code but I don’t actually know.

Re:OpenTF renames itself to OpenTofu by yencabulator on Thursday September 21, 2023 @04:25PM (#37603780)
The problem is that as far as many corporations are concerned, AGPL doesn't count as "open source we dare to use", and thus a AGPL+commercial software vendor doesn't get the benefit of companies adopting the "non-Enterprise flavor" first/easily/via grassroots.