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Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by fnordpiglet on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:21PM (#37515021)
I was a senior person at a company best remaining nameless that trained all new executives to never use the words “monopoly,” “fix prices,” “dictate prices,” despite the fact we had a required pricing schedule for retailers, bought back all excess inventory at cost to prevent a grey market, and dropped retailers that ran promotions. Their products were never on sale and accounted for 80% of retailers revenues, and they controlled 75% of their market segment. Whenever a new upstart brand came along they simply acquired them. Everyone sold their brands because it was known unless you were owned by this company you had no long term future in the market.

These sorts of market controlling companies are weird to work for. On the one hand they have a certain excellence that keeps their market lock year over year. On the other there’s a strangulating incestuous monoculture that self perpetuates a view of brilliance. You see this internally at other companies with these locks - google for one, googlers, especially hey day googlers, walk out with an ego the size of their market share. I’ve scrupulously avoided working there despite many chances over the years because of the smugness - not that I couldn’t work with that environment, I’m afraid I would adopt it as well.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by ars on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:25PM (#37515059)
ResMed and Luxottica are like that. Luxottica is a straight up abusive monopoly - they actually sell the insurance that they themselves take!

ResMed simply has better technology than others, and is a de-facto monopoly.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by deepsun on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:32PM (#37515142)
Yes, but there's also a problem is customers really believe it's worth paying $300 for the simplest type of near-vision glasses in 2023. And they're ready to pay for that, so why not take their money?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Firmwarrior on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:39PM (#37515203)
It's so nuts that Facebook was able to put a computer and cameras into sunglasses without increasing the price

Prescription glasses are basically just chunks of not-too-special plastic that you can buy online for $20 or less, but people refuse to believe that the whole industry is a scam when I try to tell them about it

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by NavinF on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:01PM (#37515420)
That's because those $20 glasses are objectively worse than $200 Costco glasses. You might not think that the latter is worth the increased price, but for the vast majority of Americans it is.

Btw Zeiss (known to HNers for making EUV lithography hardware) also makes glasses and you can buy them online. Some of their lenses are $700. Not worth it for me, but I can definitely see how someone would be willing to pay even more for those optical specs

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by throwmeout123 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:10PM (#37515492)
I have zeiss lenses on my glasses, they’re terrible. Full of scratches in 1.5 years. Worst money I’ve ever spent, my last no name €80 lenses went for years without a single scratch! Anecdata obviously
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by NavinF on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:21PM (#37515588)
What model? High index or polycarbonate?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by throwmeout123 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:33PM (#37515678)
I have no idea, but i can copy some data from the package:

One is SV AS +2.5 sphere 0 cyl duravision platinum uv 1.60 index (guess this is what you’re talking about) uvprotect

The other is the same but 1.25 sphere

Hope it helps

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by zx8080 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:42PM (#37516295)
They probably did not come with scratches, did they?

Don't scratch them. It's simple as that. Wash lens with soap. It's as simple as that.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Dylan16807 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @09:42PM (#37517172)
What, do you think they scratched them on purpose? Avoiding scratching for thousands of hours isn't actually simple, and if some brand is less scratchable then that's a real benefit.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by jjgreen on Friday September 15, 2023 @04:42AM (#37520171)
Or get glasses made with ... glass?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Firmwarrior on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:37PM (#37516701)
I've been wearing nothing but Zenni glasses for a decade, and they've been excellent the whole time

You can choose the material you put into them. Ray-Ban Scamglasses from the Scam Shop are definitely NOT better. Even Costco glasses aren't better.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by deepsun on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:02PM (#37516450)
I bought mine for $50 years ago and they are perfect. "Objectively" better I would say.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Xamayon on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:21PM (#37516610)
The $30-50 zenni glasses/lenses in my experience are actually substantially clearer than the (absolute ripoff) $400-500 rayban ones. Same prescription, and the zenni ones even arrived quicker! Frame consistency is a bit of an issue though, I bought a few more cheap pairs with the 'same' frame a few years later and they changed the design subtly which made them fit worse.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by dharmab on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:51AM (#37519417)
Zenni's men's glasses are much higher quality than any of the expensive glasses I've tried. I don't know if it's different for women's glasses.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by nostromo on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:53PM (#37515877)
It's because of insurance.

Anything insurance touches becomes expensive, because insured individuals are no longer price sensitive, so there is no incentive to lower costs by providers.

My employer pays for my vision insurance, whether I want it or not, so I may as well maximize the benefit with the "best" hardware I can get for "free."

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:05PM (#37515982)
Your employer offers it, and you use it, because the government specifically carved out a tax exemption for it. Without the tax benefit, there would not be much reason for an employer to provide you vision insurance rather than the equivalent cash.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by deepsun on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:00PM (#37516440)
I set up the vision health plan for my company, and you can certainly waive that (and save some out-of-pocket $$ as well, as employer cannot pay 100% of the insurance, ot at least I couldn't find a 100% option).

And buy the glasses at Zenni et al.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by waynesonfire on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:47PM (#37516774)
What about thr crop insurance program?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by pyuser583 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:26PM (#37516157)
The $20 glasses increase in price sharply when you add vague “nice-to-haves” like blue light filtering.

Likewise, store bought lenses are available with $20 out of pocket expenses.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:50PM (#37515318)
> Luxottica is a straight up abusive monopoly - they actually sell the insurance that they themselves take!

What is wrong with this? Apple does it, lots of managed healthcare organizations like Kaiser Permanente and UnitedHealth and CVS do it, auto manufacturers do it, etc.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by ars on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:39PM (#37515725)
It's not actually insurance, it's a payment plan. Insurance is meant to cover unexpected events, with this you pay a monthly fee for "insurance" which gives you the right to buy the glasses later for a normal price.

The other companies you mention are actual insurance: They cover rare, and unexpected events. As opposed to covering once every two year glasses, on a schedule.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:04PM (#37515972)
Then what is wrong with a business offering a payment plan?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Retric on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:24PM (#37516135)
The deception. False advertising is a crime for good reason.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:48PM (#37516348)
What is the deception?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by ars on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:20PM (#37517468)
The deception is that glasses cost a lot, and you need insurance to help with the cost.

In truth the insurance is just a scam because glasses cost 1/10th what they say.

Now that would be OK if there was actual competition, but there isn't, they are basically a monopoly - as soon as a competitor arises they buy them.

Online glasses are not the same market as a physical store where you can try them on.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:27PM (#37517528)
Everyone who goes to Walmart (majority of the US?) sees this section at the front of the store when they walk in or out:

https://www.walmart.com/browse/health-medicine/prescription-...

I see lots of $30 and $60 options.

The insurance is only a thing because the tax code allows it as a way for employers to pay people with untaxable money in the form of insurance, so it is not a real insurance market.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Retric on Thursday September 14, 2023 @11:04PM (#37517801)
Calling it insurance rather than a payment plan or something.

Further it’s got some serious conflict of interest going on with how the benefits are structured. So a plan may cover 1 300$ par of glasses, but not 2 pairs of 150$ glasses specifically to minimize the risk of a race to the bottom etc.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by ars on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:23PM (#37516126)
Because you end up paying around 50 times as much as what the glasses actually cost.

But because of how they do it they hide that. $40/month for 2 years = $960 "for insurance" which gives you the right to buy glasses worth around $20 or so.

All the number are inflated leaving people with the impression that glasses cost $400 - they don't.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @07:48PM (#37516344)
So now we are talking about profit margins being bad?

We have the internet now, with plenty of other vendors willing to sell eyeglass frames and lenses for cheaper.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Dylan16807 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @09:34PM (#37517120)
Profit margins that make a price more than double are pretty bad, yeah.

High profit margins are also bad when it's something people need.

The competition isn't working right, for a variety of reasons, and so the mere existence of competition does not make those problems disappear.

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @09:59PM (#37517288)
How is the competition not working right?

https://www.zennioptical.com/

Pretty sure you can go to most Walmarts and find much cheaper corrective eyewear than Luxxotica too.

https://www.walmart.com/browse/health-medicine/prescription-...

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Dylan16807 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:13PM (#37517417)
The average person doesn't consider them to be a viable option. Don't ask me why, but it's true. And them being considered a viable option is a prerequisite to competition working right.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:19PM (#37517463)
The average person (at least in the US) does not consider the world’s largest retailer, with a well known reputation for being the cheapest, an option? I don’t buy that.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by ars on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:23PM (#37517494)
That WalMart link is to decorative glasses, not prescription glasses.

So here's the thing with WalMart and Luxottica - their insurance does not fully cover WalMart! They give you a significantly reduced amount with WalMart (or Costco), that's how you know it's fraudulent - they only want to cover their own stores, that's not a normal behavior for "insurance".

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:38PM (#37517593)
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by Clubber on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:30PM (#37515117)
>On the one hand they have a certain excellence that keeps their market lock year over year.

Would it be unreasonable to say a lot of potential excellence isn't actualized because:

>Whenever a new upstart brand came along they simply acquired them.

and they don't ever actually compete with a near peer?

Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by fnordpiglet on Thursday September 14, 2023 @05:37PM (#37515185)
I’d say they do a good job of acquiring and learning and teaching. When they take on a brand they don’t subsume them but let them be fairly autonomous, but take on certain commoditized aspects such as supply chain, distribution, and marketing placement. The core of the brand stays independent and some of the learning of that brand comes back into the core company. They also are very self critical and internally striving. But, yes, they could certainly be better and healthy competition would help.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by throwmeout123 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:12PM (#37515507)
Would it be possible to identify those companies and then build new companies just to be acquired? Nice chunk of change every 3 years…
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by discodave on Thursday September 14, 2023 @11:21PM (#37517917)
This is what many 'serial entrepeneurs' already do.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by throwmeout123 on Friday September 15, 2023 @02:50AM (#37519406)
And what is their algorithm? How to identify those industries?
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by fnordpiglet on Friday September 15, 2023 @05:09AM (#37520343)
It’s not obvious to me. “Make a compelling product that speaks to an unfulfilled desire with pitch perfect marketing, relentless quality, and flawless execution” seems to be what differentiates who we acquired. There were a lot of startup brands and only a few were acquired in my time. Most just died.
Re:Google hid evidence by training workers to avoid words mo... by throw__away7391 on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:59PM (#37516857)
> an ego the size of their market share

Oh man, I worked for a long time on the east coast in industries that didn't give me much exposure to startups during the 90s-00s, so one day I met an ex-Google developer at a meetup who dropped into the conversation that he once worked for Google and then waited for me to be impressed. It was a long awkward wait because I didn't realize at the time that that was supposed to impress me, and instead just said something like "oh cool" and the conversation just abruptly stopped in the weirdest way you can imagine.